IRC log started Wed Jun 14 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0614
<Tril> okay, I just made a lot of progress. Now you can delete anything (under certain conditions).
<water> cool
12:10am
<water> u might want to let the mlist know at some point what the complete feature set is and will be
<water> i figure the more info we put onto the list, the more response will blossom
12:20am
<water> alan bawden reached many of the same conclusions i have.... it's too bad he missed some ideas and didn't see the potential for a really useful language like slate
<water> of course this was back in '93
<water> heh... before tunes existed
<calabash> who?
<water> abi: alan bawden
<abi> alan bawden is an ex-MIT LISP hacker at http://www.bawden.org/alan/
<water> hmmmm
<calabash> linear naming.. hrmm
<water> yes, a very interesting idea
<calabash> im searching that site for some details on it..
<water> you won't find much more than the papers Fare and i have already scoured
<calabash> guh postscript!
<water> there's a little code, but it's also in the papers
<water> duh!!! :)
<water> get ghostscript :)
<calabash> now im gonna have to dl ghostscript for win
<calabash> yah
<water> dude i  swear by that program
<eihrul> sheesh, 1 MB.... compressed postscript is your friend
<calabash> i had it before.. but i just installed w2k
<water> ewwww
* water/#tunes gets the wooden stake ready
12:30am
<eihrul> water: what exactly is the title of this paper? (still have 500k more to go)
<calabash> heh ive already downloaded ghostscript, gsview, and the paper. cable modem :)
<water> "implementing distributed systems using linear naming"
<water> i think i'm going to send him an email about slate
<calabash> errm the 'working paper' appears to be corrupt
<Tril> water: ok I sent email to review list
<water> tril: ok
<water> which paper is that?
<calabash> wp1.ps.gz
<water> oh that
<calabash> under project status
<water> i got a good copy of that
<water> and that's not the important paper
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
<calabash> which is the important one?
<water> duh... the one whose title i mentioned above
<water> "implementing distributed systems using linear naming"
<water> on his home page
<calabash> ahh ok got it
<calabash> yay it worked
12:40am
<calabash> man. i should be sleeping
<calabash> later all :)
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<water> cya
01:10am
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.arrow.cx/slate-home.html || Slate Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial || Zope Review Database: http://zope.tunes.org/Review/
<water> hm mips 20k
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01:50am
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!varley.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 44 (41 clients)
!varley.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects!  You are on 4 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr.
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-:- [Users(#tunes:6)] 
[ TUNES     ] [ nate37    ] [ smoke     ] [ coreyr    ] [ Fare      ] 
[ abi       ] 
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<hcf> coreyr:
<hcf> abi: acd&i?
<abi> acd&i is Advanced Compiler Design & Implementation at http://www.mkp.com/books_catalog/catalog.asp?ISBN=1-55860-320-4
12:00pm
* coreyr/#tunes is back
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<smklsmkl> anyone use hevea here?
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02:00pm
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<auspex> Hello.
04:40pm
<hcf> hi
<hcf> what brings u?
<auspex> I'm wondering if anyone has made an evaluation of (or 'rep 'jade-lisp (languageof sawfish))
<auspex> :-) 
<auspex>  ^--- smiley for the non-existing function (languageof)
<auspex> It falls somewhere between scheme and elisp: minimal, but has some special functions and byte-compilation.
<hcf> ok, where?
<auspex> http://librep.sourceforge.net/
<hcf> oh
<hcf> abi: librep?
<abi> librep is an embeddable Emacs-Lisp-like runtime library, LISP interpreter (rep), byte-code compiler and virtual machine at http://www.dcs.warwick.ac.uk/~john/sw/librep.html and http://librep.sourceforge.net/
<auspex> I'm guessing abi is a bot.
<hcf> yeah infobot
<auspex> I've been trying to find a comparison and evaluation of LISPs, including rep, and the one at tunes.org is the only one I've found; but no mention of rep.
<hcf> eihrul: know any?
04:50pm
<eihrul> nope
<eihrul> i stick to CMUCL
<hcf> know any of comparisons?
<auspex> Tunes will be using scheme, right?
<auspex> um, primarily using? (I'm not sure that's the question I want to ask. I'm still reading.)
<auspex> doh, just found the FAQ. nev mind
<XeF4> auspex: it is not the question you want to ask, but it is answered in the FQ
<XeF4> FAQ, even
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05:00pm
<auspex> hmm, since many have submitted logos, here's my submission:   )(
<auspex> reflected parenthesis, or "where that ends, this begins"
<auspex> or "the world in a lisp function"
<auspex> Well, I'm going to continue reading. I'll probably be back when I've read and learned more. Ciao!
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05:10pm
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<water> hey all
<lar1> Hey
05:50pm
<water> hm
<water> mabus: hello
06:00pm
<water> librep could/should interoperate with Kawa
<water> anyway
<water> who's alive here?
<hcf> hi
<XeF4> I'm alive
06:10pm
<water> so
<water> does anyone want to discuss something?
06:20pm
<water> bah
<XeF4> at the moment, I'm looking for good information on common lisp reader macros
<water> oh
<water> clhs?
<XeF4> hmm?
<water> abi: clhs?
<abi> clhs is the Common LISP HyperSpec at http://www.xanalys.com/software_tools/reference/HyperSpec/
06:30pm
<coreyr> water: eta of spec?
<water> hm
<water> tonight, if fortune smiles
<water> a lot hinges upon conversations
<coreyr> are you waiting for eihrul?
<water> yes, or someone who can talk from his perspective
<coreyr> :)
06:50pm
<coreyr> what issues are unresolved?
<water> unresolved issues: what "." does precisely, where and how it is specified, and how must ":" and "^" muct therefore be implemented
<water> also, fully define the set of primitives needed
<water> the minimal set, such as slot-management, cloning, and "."
<water> there does exist the possibility of making multiple kinds of ".", but that is not something i'm pushing
-:- SignOff billh: #TUNES (BitchX-1.0c16 -- just do it.)
<water> i think that could wait for mobius to be properly don
<water> +e
<coreyr> eihrul said he could implement your spec in a day, when i asked him earlier.
<water> yeah the spec will be very short, most likely
<coreyr> i dont think i understand the issues, but.
<coreyr> you need standard objects right?
<water> "standard"=?
<coreyr> like for numbers...
<water> oh
07:00pm
<coreyr> what do you call that base?
<water> yes, but that's pretty simple to "simulate" for now
<water> literals, you mean?
<coreyr> hmm
<coreyr> i mean standard objects that would make up a base that someone could use to create things that they want
<water> heh
<coreyr> i know thats vague
<water> iow "literals" :)
<coreyr> but i dont have the terminology
<coreyr> ok
<water> the spec won't include anything but stuff required by the usual PL lexer
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> and even then, that's just for initial purposes
<coreyr> when will literals come?
<water> almost immediately
<water> they'll be handled implicitly in the first round, but the goal is to reify them asap
<water> those user-level type things i keep talking about
<water> being able to reflect on the lexer (like lisp's reader) in extensive ways
<water> (period :)
<water> does that make sense?
<coreyr> :)
<coreyr> kinda
<coreyr> more than it would have a month ago
<water> ok
<water> i must find better ways to explain these things
<coreyr> you gotta speak to the lowest common denominator
<water> lol
<water> dude do you *know* what the lcd is? :)
07:10pm
<coreyr> yeah
<coreyr> youve never heard that?
<water> the lcd barely groks algebra, let alone algebraic specification
<water> yes i've heard that, i'm saying the lcd here is very low :)
<coreyr> oh
<coreyr> heh
<water> but i'll try
<coreyr> hmm
<water> lord knows we get enough of them here ;)
<coreyr> yeah
<water> s/lord/void/
<coreyr> they'll be handled {implicit}ly the first round but the goal is to {reify} them asap
<coreyr> those {user-level} type things i keep talking about
<water> heh
<coreyr> being able to {reflect} on the {lexer}
<coreyr> etc...
<coreyr> :P
<water> gotcha
>>> coreyr [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] requested PING 3403743433 from #tunes
<water> hm
<water> yes part of documentation should include clarifying the glossary network
07:20pm
<coreyr> on the unresovled issues, 
<coreyr> with slate spec, do you have ideas about how things should go but arent sure about it, or are you totally without clue?
<water> heh
<water> the former
<water> it's a big step in programming language design to decide to *emulate* state in a system with lots of distributed structure
<coreyr> anything close?
<coreyr> or just precursors in current langs/
<water> other than this linear naming paper, not really
<coreyr> people are going to ask you why this is superior
<water> i know
<coreyr> im sure the reasons are beyond my level, unless you want to "water" it down. :)
<water> they already have, especially in the case of arrow
<water> and slate is the kernel of arrow implementation
<water> the user-level type thingie is in the direction of arrow
<water> tunes lies directly in the path between slate and arrow
<water> and this situation has been clear in my mind since '95
<water> </arrow rant>
<coreyr> your allowed to rant about tunes/arrow/slate stuff
<coreyr> i encourage it
07:30pm
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<water> re bill
<billh> Hello. ;-)
<billh> I got Kawa working last night, but it sucks 77megs of ram. ;-)
<water> ouch
<billh> Scheme 48 only sucks 6-7megs.
<water> why so much? hotspot or libs or a combination?
<billh> probably.
<billh> DrScheme only sucks about 16megs.
<water> ya
<billh> The libs are pretty extensive so it's like having another complete language system in place.
<water> ic
<billh> There's advantages to that in that you have the ability to use stuff like Swing, etc... that are not in typical Scheme.
<water> k
<water> a module system, i assume, handles this
<water> so you could dump modules when not necessary
<billh> But the bloat is a serious concern. Fortunately I'm running FreeBSD 4.0 primarily and my machine won't thrash because of VM load like LInux does.
<coreyr> heh
<billh> Yeah, hopefully future Java JVMs will deal with this more intelligently.
<eihrul> billh: if you talk about linux vm load one more time i will have to thwap you over the head with bespin!
<billh> The raw JVm itself is pretty reasonable.
<eihrul> this is the fourth time you've pimped it
<eihrul> once is enough :P
<billh> Hahaha
<water> eih: FDU chains?
<billh> eihrul Yeah, I know. It's big frustration of mine since I don't have that much ram, 64megs. ;-)
<eihrul> water: factored definition use chains: every definition has exactly one use
<water> ok
<billh> What's that stuff ?
<billh> sounds interesting.
<eihrul> billh: well, you can rant about it all you want in #kernelnewbies :)
<water> linear naming stuff
<billh> eihrul They already know.
<eihrul> water: whereas fud chains are: every use has one definition
<water> k
<billh> eihrul You talking about variable useage analysis in functional languages ?
<water> eih: how much did you get into that paper?
<water> bill: more than that
<eihrul> water: the one you posted?
<water> eih: yes
<eihrul> haven't read it yet
<water> look into the chapter on state near the end, the intro at the beginning, and the linear scheme profile in between
07:40pm
<billh> what are you guys reading from ?
<billh> Muchnick ?
<water> the paper available from the following site:
<water> abi: alan bawden
<abi> alan bawden is an ex-MIT LISP hacker at http://www.bawden.org/alan/
<water> his dissertation
<water> a lot of the slate ideas are there
<water> but not all of them, of course ;)
<billh> church project ?
<water> no, grep "dissertation" on that page
* billh/#tunes attempt to fix his postscript viewing system.
<coreyr> hmm
07:50pm
<hcf> abi: idsuln?
<abi> idsuln is Implementing Distributed Systems Using Linear Naming at ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/1500-1999/AITR-1627.ps
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<water> hi steve
<StevenL> Hi, there.
08:00pm
<StevenL> Your bot kicked my friend Lynn, so I figured I stop by and find out what he said to deserve it.
<water> eh?
<water> our bot doesn't kick
<StevenL> With him, it's entirely possible, he deserved it.
<Tril> no bots have ops here 
<StevenL> Humm.
<water> i kicked him
<water> once
<water> and i don't think people at the time dissaproved
<StevenL> Oh well...
<water> s/dissap/dissapp/
<StevenL> Everyone's got a right to their own opinion. :)
<water> sure
<water> what else brings you here?
<StevenL> That was it, at the moment...
<water> ok
<StevenL> I tend to get curious about the oddest things.
<Tril> <kick> :)
<water> i suppose you know of SL/I?
<StevenL> A recuitment attempt was made. :)
<water> ok
<water> he seems to think SL/I (whatever it is) will satisfy tunes hll requirements
<StevenL> Let's say, I've never believed in a single solution for all problems.
<water> ok
<StevenL> I sure couldn't say.
<water> just please make it clear to him that he can't claim adherence to the documentation of Tunes without some sort of concurrence from us
<StevenL> What are tune's goals?
<Tril> refer you to the FAQ
<Tril> abi faq
<abi> faq is http://www.tunes.org/Tunes-FAQ.html
<StevenL> I'll let you tell him that.
<StevenL> OK.
<water> i already have
<water> he didn't get the message
<water> i think those years at IBM made him an ass
<StevenL> He's got his good points.
<StevenL> I just keep telling him to show me proof-of-concept...
<StevenL> That's keeps him pretty busy.
<water> hm the faq isn't loading here
<water> nm there it is
<water> ok
<StevenL> The FAQ loaded fine here.
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<NorthernLady> Hello
<water> hello, nlady
<water> what brings you here?
<NorthernLady> I am just channel surfing :)
<water> ok
<NorthernLady> How are you doing?
<water> not bad
<water> have you heard of tunes before?
08:10pm
<NorthernLady> Never
<NorthernLady> If fact - this is my first time on this server
* water/#tunes points at the topic
<NorthernLady> I am normally on DALnet
<water> ok
<Tril> is dalnet still lagged as heck?
<NorthernLady> I have not been there yet
<StevenL> See guys.  Back to work for me.
<NorthernLady> not tonight anyways
<water> heh
<StevenL> And ladies too.
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<Tril> I mean since like a year ago last time I visted it
<NorthernLady> Oh yes
<NorthernLady> Still lagging all the time
<NorthernLady> Do you play MP3 in here?
<water> heh
<water> abi: tunes?
<abi> tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or to programming languages what the internet is to networks
<water> thanks, abi
<abi> water: sure thing
<Tril> it's not a musical project it's an acronym
<Tril> connection to music is just for an example, and artistic
<Tril> yeah, good job, abi
* NorthernLady/#tunes is at that website now :)
<NorthernLady> Thanks for your help :))
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<water> hm
<water> has anyone met mabus?
<coreyr> yes
<water> oh? what's mabus like?
<water> and why is he lurking?
08:20pm
* water/#tunes was answered off-channel
<water> btw, i sent email to alan bawden last night
<water> i don't know if the address was current, though, although i didn't get a bonce-back
08:40pm
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<water> hey wash
<washort> hello
<washort> hey.
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<water> yes?
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<water> hm
-:- SignOff billh: #TUNES ([BX] Mr. Peanut uses BitchX. Shouldn't you?)
08:50pm
<water> i think that email went to the wrong person
<water> hcf: could you locate alan bawden's current email for me?
<hcf> possibly
<water> he's no longer listed at ai.mit.edu, and he has no user-site there
<hcf> btw, the idsuln factoid is available via: idsuln, ids, and unl for ur convenience
<water> heh ok
<water> hm the obvious answer is alan@bawden.org
<water> hm or at achilles.bu
<water> i don't think this fellow wants to be contacted ;)
<eihrul> it seems he's playing a cruel joke with non-linearity :)
<water> lol
<water> hm lcs.mit.edu has him
09:00pm
<hcf> that looks the best from the http://mesa.rrzn.uni-hannover.de/ results
<water> whoa
* water/#tunes bookmarks that
<hcf> i almost forgot to use it
<hcf> i dont usually need email addrs
<water> if lcs.mit.edu works, so should ai.mit.edu
<hcf> u could try calling him ;)
<water> heh
<hcf> http://www.POPULUS.net/cgi-bin/HyperFinger?address=Alan@LCS.MIT.EDU
<water> that's just too much info
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09:10pm
<hcf> Alan@LCS.MIT.EDU showed up on a couple of pages w/ 2000 dates, one had Alan@LCS.MIT.EDU (formerly Alan@MIT-AI)
<water> ok
<water> however, i didn't get a bounce-back reply, so i don't think i should bother
<Tril> you guys get his SSN and bank account #'s?  :P
<Tril> That's not a request!
<water> heh
<water> hcf: how much info can you get on *me*?
<hcf> info such as?
<Tril> hey hcf can you figure out my cell phone number?
<water> hcf: surprise me
<hcf> i have all the info i want, i dont want more
<water> heh
<coreyr> hey can you get hcf's name?
<water> so anyway
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09:20pm
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<hcf> icac,
<hcf> abi: jfs?
<abi> jfs is a programming environment for Jfl, a language for transforming fuzzy logic programs into C and back at http://inet.uni2.dk/~jemor/jfs.htm
<water> odd
<hcf> found on http://www.hex.net/~cbbrowne/langobscure.html
<water> hm the one that links to slate
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<hcf> abi: Q-BAL is Queue-BAsed Lanugage, a PL based on the question "What would it be like if a language were based on queues rather than stacks?" at http://homepage.eircom.net/~kmgaughan/esolang/q-bal/index.html
<water> heh
<water> awesome
<washort> abi, mozart/oz?
<abi> washort: i haven't a clue
<washort> abi, oz?
<abi> washort: no idea
<washort> hm
<water> abi: mozart
<abi> mozart is a concurrent constraint programming language at http://www.mozart-oz.org/ or an implementation of Oz
<washort> heh :)
<water> abi: oz
<water> oh well
10:40pm
* washort/#tunes doubts there is a language that abi doesn't know about
<washort> well, at the very least, a language with a freely available implementation :)
<water> oh yes there are
<eihrul> any language that requires 16 bit or 32 bit unicode characters to name
<washort> eihrul: haha :)
<abi> eihrul: :P~~
<water> hey there's a MOO research group
<hcf> and the url would be?
<water> http://www.cms.dmu.ac.uk/Research/MRG/
10:50pm
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-:- SignOff billh: #TUNES (BitchX: its everywhere you want to be)
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0615
IRC log ended Thu Jun 15 00:00:00 2000