IRC log started Mon Jun 12 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0612
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<hcf> nate37: yes?
<nate37> seeing if dalvarez was here
<nate37> why isn't abi in all the other rooms?
<hcf> rooms?
<hcf> channels is the term
<hcf> and which channels do u mean?
<nate37> s/rooms/channels/
<nate37> sorry... left over memory from MS Chat days :-/
<hcf> take this to #{}
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01:20am
* water/#tunes is taking a stroll through mlist archives
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<water> hm all the mlist useful info has made it onto the tunes pages or has been detailed on the mlist within the last year
01:40am
<smoke> hm anyone here familiar with Lua /
<water> not really
<smoke> i can't figure out whether it's a cheap quick hack language or a well designed truely useful thing.
* water/#tunes looks
<water> it seems useful, if you're into pascal
01:50am
<water> "the manipulation of the global environment in Lua is scarcely needed, since tables, used as objects, provide a better way to maintain multiple environments. "
<water> it's a lot like beta i guess
<water> although much more lightweight
02:00am
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<jemarch> hi, i am looking for a serious channel or server about compiler construction. Can someone help me?
<_Fizban_> yes, i can help you
<_Fizban_> no, i canīt
<_Fizban_> who know
<_Fizban_> s
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05:50am
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<{Alex}> hello
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<{Alex}> good idling channel...
06:10am
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<hcf> abi: tilt is a PL which focuses on the mutation and crossover aspects of genetic programming, built on Scheme at http://www.cc.gatech.edu/~jimmyd/research/tilt
07:10am
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<coreyr> re eihrul
09:20am
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<coreyr> re water
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<water> re
09:40am
<coreyr> water: have any slate revelations in sleep?
<water> no :/
<water> but linear namespaces and monads must get addressed
<water> it seems no one on the tunes mlist wants to respond to anything lately
09:50am
<coreyr> do you have any idea with ns and monads?
10:00am
<water> just exploring notions of how mutation of state is to occur in slate and how to take objects from one namespace and return them to an outer one
<water> basically, how to get "." to drag information around
<water> or results
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10:10am
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<water> damn it, i get the idea right as eihrul leaves
<coreyr> heh
10:30am
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<water> re
<water> eihrul: i got a question
<eihrul> preguntame
<water> how could we draw from the linear naming idea to use "." to pull results back through namespaces?
<eihrul> i'm no expert in linear naming :)
<water> bah
<water> damn it, i have to get this access db done pretty soon, so i don't really have time
10:40am
<water> well, my point is that there's a way to do it, but basically it involves having "." rewrite the object system in subtle ways on each invocation
<water> hm looks like i have to go in to work today to get info from my bosses
10:50am
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<water> heh
<water> jecel just posted my links to the self mlist
<hcf> which links?
<water> my old and new docs
<water> => more incentive to write when i get this damned db finished
<coreyr> heh
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<water> (my db, not diktuon)
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<coreyr> re lmaxson
<lmaxson> hello.
12:00pm
<coreyr> lmaxson: all that stuff you have on compuserve, would you like me to serve it on the web?
<lmaxson> No.
<lmaxson> I'm sorry I'm doing a monthly newsletter at the moment.  I apologize for the delay in response.
<lmaxson> I'm still in the process of preparing material specifically for the tunes website.
<coreyr> id be interested in seeing it when completed
<lmaxson> When complete, which I hope is shortly, then I will submit it to Fare.
<lmaxson> Meanwhile I'm still in the process of absorbing the other material on the website(s).
<coreyr> why not the tunes mlist?
<lmaxson> the mailing list?
<coreyr> yeah
<lmaxson> The original suggestion was to submit it as another language entry on the website.
12:10pm
<lmaxson> That way people can ignore it at their leisure.
<coreyr> is the stuff on compuserve outdated?
<lmaxson> No.  But is not oriented to address the issues of tunes.
<lmaxson> Normally I would write for an intended audience.  The one on CompuServe differs significantly from the one here.
12:20pm
<lmaxson> Did I answer your question properly.  I'm a little sensitive about saying anything here.
<coreyr> tehe.
<lmaxson> I will return to lurking mode while I continue to write my newsletter.
<coreyr> well if you have something tentative, ill look at it?
12:30pm
<coreyr> criticism makes things well balanced.
<lmaxson> I appreciate that.  Maybe I will feel more comfortable once I have completed some editing and reorganizing.
<lmaxson> It's sometimes difficult to make the point that tools provide more restrictions than intrinsic in a programming language.
<coreyr> then address their objections in a nonvacuous way
<lmaxson> I hope that the material I submit will do that.
<hcf> bbl
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<water> likewise
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!)
<lmaxson> Maybe that's what I should do before it's done for me.
<lmaxson> I will attempt to get a copy of my material to you as soon as possible.
<coreyr> kay
<lmaxson> Bye for now.
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12:40pm
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<{Alex}> hi
01:30pm
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<overfien> yoh what up
02:00pm
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<water> re
<billh> Hello water.
<billh> water Jawa rocks.
<water> good
<water> any really notable features?
<billh> I was reading a couple of papers on it and it's a very tightly integrated extension of Java's object hierarchy into Scheme primitive types.
<water> oh
<billh> all Scheme object are of derived type java.lang.Object with specialization for particular derived objects of course.
<water> ok
04:00pm
<billh> And because of this Scheme is directly conceptually compatible with Java's Reflection stuff.
<water> ah that's cool
<billh> Scheme then can work over RMI, etc...
<water> ic
<billh> and since it's the JVM, it can use the JIT core to gain speed that wouldn't be possible with straight interpreters.
<water> cool
<billh> Since JVMs from IBM are getting remarkably faster, in fact, faster than C for certain kind of array/math operations....
<billh> you could see some pretty fast Scheme technology coming out from Jawa and other JVM hosted language technologies.
<billh> no comment ?
<water> i hate that word :)
<billh> What word ? "technologies" ?
<water> yes, it's cool
<water> yes that word
<billh> Yeah, hahaha, It's one of the most interesting functional technologies I've seen so far.
<water> it's just as bad as "industry"
<billh> Yeah, I know.
<billh> ...but I really wanted a unification of both OOP and LIST/lambda based software systems.
<water> which takes ordinary things that ordinary people should be doing and makes it socially unacceptible to do them without the context of a corporation
<water> hm
<billh> CL didn't exactly do what I really wanted it to do cleanly.
<water> this is a nice unificiation, yes
<water> scheme already should have had an oo compiler... this fixes that problem
<billh> With this stuff, you could do multimethod resolution, etc... and an extension of the Scheme language yet have it be compatible with the JVM.
<water> right
<billh> Yeah, I saw a bunch of macros the looks pretty interesting, but I'm not really interested in doing OOP in CL/Scheme. It believe it's more naturally expressed using native Java languages facilities, etc...
<water> perhaps
<billh> and since the libraries such as Swing are accessable to Scheme via it's object interface, you have the best of both worlds.
<water> applying oo compilation strategies to a list-based language *is* different from unifying the language ideas
<billh> It potentially makes Jawa the most portable Scheme on the planet.
<water> yep
<billh> Yeah, I know.
04:10pm
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<water> hey tril
<water> have you caught up on the maling list yet?
<Tril> no
<Tril> I'm writing some documentation for review contributors
<water> ok cool
05:30pm
<water> i suppose this includes a pretty simple way for people to sign up as contributors
<Tril> I could make a form to automate that, that would e-mail me the info for someone who wants a new account
<water> ok
05:40pm
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<water> re rares
<rares> hey
<rares> high school students can't get a decent CS course and old folks are getting on the net like there's no tomorrow
<rares> anyway
<rares> wsup here
06:20pm
<water> heh
<water> tril's putting together the last bits of the review db and i'm working on the details of the slate spec
<rares> cool
<water> and who says there's a tomorrow for anyone? let alone the old folks? :)
<water> of course there must be volunteers to fill this db with data ;)
<water> not just new data... there's also the old stuff from the existing ~250k of html to port
<rares> couldn't you just write a makeshift slate script to do the job
<rares> :0
<rares> :)
<water> :P
<water> not even perl would do the job, actually
<water> the format of the existing stuff is so varied
<water> and the db format is pretty uniformly structured
<Tril> I put a submit form on zope.tunes.org/Review for new contributors as you suggested :)
<Tril> Now I gotta go to dinner
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<water> hm
06:30pm
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<water> if i use the namespace stack of the evaluator in order to *create* namespaces using ".", then i have a mutation primitive
07:00pm
<water> more specifically...
<water> if i use "." to *drag* the last selected object back through the namespace chain, then i have the desired effect with the semantics reminiscent of both linear duplication and graph-rewrite
<water> but it doesn't matter unless this can be used effectively
<water> and this doesn't directly address the full ideas of graph-rewrite and their impact on the mutability issue (which outer namespace gets cloned on an object's update)
<water> in layman's terms... :)
<water> i'm trying to get the interaction of lookup chains and "." sequences to work together to make good code. for example....
<water> "myPoint x : 4 ...." and "myPoint x ^ ..."
<water> to know what the state of the system at any point along the sequence of interactive evaluation
<water> i'm also not sure if the end of ex.1 should be ".^..." instead of just "...." :)
07:10pm
<rares> hmm (parsing)
<water> the namespace system is just one big graph.... evaluations are actions that replace parts of the graph with new ones.... or add new ones
<water> if i can figure out how to control the general idea of graph rewrite using ".", ":" and "^", then i'm set
* water/#tunes has 3 papers open on the subject to sift for ideas
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07:20pm
<water> uhoh time to reboot
<water> brb
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07:30pm
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<water> re
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<water> re
<Tril> hi
<water> (note: see recent chanlogs for slate technical rant :)
-:- Tril has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html || Slate Tutorial: http://diktuon.arrow.cx/list.php?ns=tutorial || Zope Review Database: http://zope.tunes.org/Review/
07:40pm
* water/#tunes decides to finish the forth node
<Tril> Uh.. what's "."?
<water> heh
<water> it's the equivalent of ) in lisp
<water> the ( was found to be redundant
<water> see latest slate docs and the latest post to the tunes mlist on slate
07:50pm
* water/#tunes tracks down a dead link
<water> hey wait a sec
<water> LAR!
<water> rares, too
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<water> get yer rears working on this zope review thingie
<Tril> they don't have accounts
<Tril> but if they go to the URL in the topic, there's a link to get one
<water> time to take care of that, isn't it? :)
<water> re eih
<water> check logs... some thoughts so far are there
08:00pm
<rares> uh your code sucks
<rares> apply asks me for a password
<rares> kinda catch 22
<Tril> That's where you put in your password for the first time. Make one up.
<rares> no it ain't
<Tril> did you go to http://zope.tunes.org/Review/SignupForm?
<rares> yes
<water> oic
<Tril> does it give you the HTTP Basic auth box and ask for an username and password before you get the page?
<water> hitting the button asked him for a passwd
<rares> and there's a zope password entry box for the signup but when I hit apply it asks me for a password before it is put into the system
<Tril> Hit Cancel, then it gives an erro, then hit Reload
<Tril> OK so you are right let me fix that
<rares> good
<rares> :)
<water> yeah
<water> :P
<Tril> ok, try it now!
<rares> there it goes
<rares> okay netscape is in booze mode
<rares> get this
<rares> i clicked on the email button on Linuxstart.com
<rares> nothing happened
<rares> I move the mouse away
<rares> the email .gif is anim'ing slowly all by itself
08:10pm
* water/#tunes wonders how some of this crap wound up in the forth review entry
<rares> okay now what
<water> hm?
<Tril> Now water wants you to help him import the old reveiw entries, I think...
<water> that would help
<water> :)
<water> pick stuff you know over things you don't
<rares> ok
<rares> shit gotta go
<water> and try to clean up any messes you find :)
<rares> I've got water on the brain and shit to write
<water> but beware... Tril has implemented only SOME of the features to fix mistakes
08:20pm
<Tril> and what would those be?
<Tril> As far as I know, you can't fix anything!
<water> like being able to revise bad links
<water> heh
<water> oh yeah
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08:30pm
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<water> hey
08:40pm
<water> hm
<Tril> ?
<water> various things
<water> i assume you have lots of features to add :)
<Tril> yes
<Tril> I'm adding ability to edit copyrights now
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<water> in that case, i will save my whining ;)
<water> hey hcf
<hcf> hey
<water> hcf: sign up for your Tunes Zope account today! :)
<water> and help me port these friggin' nodes
<hcf> uhm, forsaking dikt?
<water> nope
<water> this is only for review
<water> it won't really work well for what we want with dikt anyway
<water> and besides, we should merge features at some point
<water> especially the inter-link syntax stuff
<water> whatever that turns out to involve
08:50pm
<water> so....
<water> anyone care to joust with me over how linear namespaces are involved with Slate? :)
<water> hm what if a compiler for a language deserves a review mention?
<water> i guess that'd be an "implementation"
<water> that Zope logo is starting to piss me off
<water> thankfully i have an image-blocker
<Tril> But with the power of Zope, I can remove that logo from the bottom of all pages with one small edit!
<Tril> Want me to?
<water> yes
<water> heh
<Tril> ok
09:00pm
<water> ah much better :)
<water> especially as that logo reloaded on every page refresh
<Tril> Do you think each user should get only one review, or as many as they want?
<water> hm
<water> right now, there's no structure to it at all
<water> so i don't see the point in allowing more than one review as long as you can use it to overwrite the old one :)
<Tril> Is youlian here?
<Tril> I just got a request for zope access for someone by that name
<water> heh
<water> no, not currently
<water> he's the intelligenesis fellow, i forget his nick
<Tril> yes I'm asking him to come here
<water> actually, more than one review per member would allow paragraph structure, Tril
09:10pm
<water> which can't be done without it right now
<Tril> So, HTML tags don't work, you are saying?
<Tril> did you try?
<water> not even CR's work
<Tril> CR's don't work because it *is* html. Did you try <p> ?
<water> i'll try it
<hcf> zombieflesh [youlian@216.89.84.6]
<water> oh wow
<water> it does work
<Tril> that's the ip he filled the form from
<water> too bad i can't edit my old reviews ;)
<Tril> Copyright support just went in
<water> ok
<Tril> in, or up, or down, or out
<Tril> whatever direction it is
<water> direction?
<water> oh
<water> heh
<water> it's a black box.... of course it went "in" :)
<Tril> into the database, up on the web, down and out to the masses
<Tril> you can quote that :)
<water> servers are slaves :)
<water> the slave network is below us :)
<Tril> ok, whatever?? :P
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09:20pm
<water> uh i only see GPL and PD for licenses
<Tril> After adding more?
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<water> yeah like just a second ago
<Tril> It should have worked..
<Tril> I'll go try it again
<Tril> works for me still.... I just added the X license
<Tril> Did you reload the "Add Entry Form"?
<water> not yet
<Tril> that's probabvly the reason
<water> yeah i see the X license
<water> so, gpl, pd,x
<Tril> What license did you add?
<water> eh?
<water> i can't add licenses
<Tril> You are confusing me... the list of licenses is editable now. Reload the Main Edit menu!
<water> oh
<Tril> I thought you said you added more licenses, or at least it sounded that way.
<water> i didn't look there
09:30pm
<Tril> So, you're adding entries without going to the main edit menu?
<water> why can't i add licenses when i need to pick one for the implementation?
<water> no, i'm not adding entries! :)
<Tril> sure you are liar
<water> i sure wish i could, though, without climbing back to the main page
<water> :P
<water> heh i can actually travel up to where you live to smack you around, you know :)
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<water> or make you sit in a comfy chair!!! :)
<Tril> So, exactly where do you want a text entry field to add a new entry?
<water> the same place where language implementations get added
<Tril> On the "Add Implementation" page? Should the drop down box have a "New Implementation" entry and then a box below it that you fill out only if you select that option?
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<water> change that listbox to accept other entries typed in
<water> (if it's even possible)
<Tril> obvuiously you can't just type in a listbox, so there would have to be a text field
<water> lol
<water> "obviously"
<Tril> maybe not obviously
<water> except this is a DB app, so i expected something less lame :)
09:40pm
<water> so....
<Tril> is zope down? It's not responding to me
<water> *you* don't know?
<water> hm something's not right
<Tril> is it working for you?
<water> no, it just stopped responding here as well
<water> i was busy checking links for validity, so i didn't notice when it went down
* water/#tunes decides to leave porting efforts to other tunesers, and returns to language spec thinking
<hcf> good .plan
09:50pm
<water> this linear graph rewrite stuff is pretty cool
<water> i might be able to formalize the whole damn language (sans MO system) with it
<Tril> hmm, zope just got lagged somehow it seems to be working ok now
<water> oh
<Tril> asfjhsafkjahsf
10:00pm
<water> heh
<water> frustrated? :)
<Tril> I'm trying to add what you askled and it aoint working.
<Tril> I dont understand python expressions
<water> don't worry about it
<hcf> Tril: such as?
<Tril> I used one with != before, that tested for inequality just fine.. isn't equality == ?
<Tril> ok got it
<Tril> phew
<Tril> It would help if I knew python  :)
<Tril> water: Done... try adding an implementation that has its own license
<Tril> you can add the license at the same time
<water> sorry, i'm retired from that dirty work for now :)
<Tril> uh-huh
<water> gotta make slate the primo tunes language ;)
<Tril> wel, it works anyway
<water> thanks
<Tril> maybe someone else will find your feature helpful.
<water> coreyr: how's diktuon, btw?
<hcf> i'm working on it
<water> ah
<water> hm....
<water> 3 sources of non-linearity in naming exist for slate...
<water> inheritance, meta-instantiation, and namespace enclosure
<water> i.e. "parent", "meta", and ".."
<water> parent is nice because it can be used for single-direction delegation when necessary
10:10pm
<water> but delegation to multiple objects will have to be provided a la mixins
<water> or delegation libraries that support various security parameters
<water> which is easy, but not trivial
<water> problems abound, though
* water/#tunes returns to reading instead of ranting to people who probably don't feel like following along
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<hcf> ".."? '<' u mean right?
<water> oh yeah oops :)
<water> no, of course i'm not thinking about too many things at once ;)
10:20pm
<water> nonlinearity isn't a problem if there is a *transparent* way to duplicate object handles with an object that forks the name into two
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<water> you basically build a binary tree with the object whose name should be shared at the root
<water> hey terra
<Terralthra> Aloha
<water> and you set it up so that slot access to any of the elements of the tree just forwards its way up to the root automatically
<water> hm
<water> one interesting issue is that "normal" oo forwards messages but not state
<water> self does delegation, but...
<water> it still treats state specially
<water> so it's time to leave it to the MOs, me thinks
<water> terra: wassup?
<water> how's the paper going?
<Terralthra> It is finished
<water> cool. can we see?
<Terralthra> Certainly
<water> Tril: you should probably have a look at it
<Terralthra> Attempting to install a print driver for TeX printing to a file in Winblows
<water> heh
<Terralthra> RTF suffice?
<water> what TeX tool do you use in winblows?
<water> sure
<Terralthra> I have no idea, that's what makes it difficult
<water> emTeX?
<Terralthra> I would have to get that first.
<water> before i forget: the above binary tree thingie would be an inheritance family of course
10:30pm
<water> so the delegation would be handled transparently by the MOs
<water> anyway, share a url when you're ready
<water> hm
<water> the MOP must have a handle for manipulating the inheritance/delegation mechanism
<Terralthra> http://members.home.com/terralthra/research_paper.rtf
<water> thx
<Terralthra> np
<Terralthra> I wonder how Fare feels about being referred to as a Devil's Advocate =]
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10:40pm
<water> i really need to rewrite that arrow paper
<water> oh well
<water> i hope you get good marks on your paper
<Terralthra> I hope so too =] She said it looked good, and I'll find out the grade tomorrow
<water> damn, everyone else is quiet
<Terralthra> What do you think of the paper?
<water> for the purpose it was intended, it's really good
<hcf> water: icuc, http://www.theory.org/~adric/syntex/syntex.html
<water> cool, theory.org 8)
<Tril> Editing of links should now be working
<water> hcf: thx
<water> ok
<water> let the troops know ;)
<Tril> well. almost (dont try yet)
<water> heh
10:50pm
<Tril> ok
11:00pm
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<water> of course, when eihrul and i talk about slate, it's always off-channel ;)
<water> especially when hcf leaves 'coz its sooo noisy :)
11:20pm
<water> so anyway... :)
<water> of course my blabbing about the discussion and hcf pouncing on the situation subsequently combined to squeash the conversation like a pitiful bug :)
<water> s/squeash/squash/
<water> i guess i'm too used to propagandizing "squeak" :)
<eihrul> well, squeash is nice... its a dramatized squish + squash
<water> heh
<water> hm
<water> random propaganda:
<water> abi: lua?
<abi> lua is an embeddable language library to extend my programs at http://www.tecgraf.puc-rio.br/lua/ and http://csg.uwaterloo.ca/~lhf/lua/ or http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Lua/
<water> the abi entry can't do enough justice to it
<eihrul> random propaganda:
<eihrul> abi: ssa?
<abi> ssa is Static Single Assignment or intro at http://granite.sru.edu/~chen/SSA/SSA.html
<water> not so random, though :)
<hcf> water: i just grabbed the 1st part out of the review entry for lua
<water> thought so
11:30pm
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<eihrul> hmm? why lua? the tag system?
<water> that and you can have functions as part of data-structures, while keeping the language lightweight
<eihrul> yeah, i remember playing around with lua way before i ever got involved with tunes, was fun :)
<water> see? random propaganda
<water> hm finally to page 120 of 156
<water> it's a damn long thesis
11:40pm
<water> hm. i'm involved in an email discussion about arrow
11:50pm
<water> this guy needs a clue: he's obviously intelligent enough in CS, but in the critical thinking department, he's woefully under-equipped
<water> it's the same kind of thing i find among most programmers
<water> an obsession with control clouds out malleable thinking skills
<water> anyway
<coreyr> </rant> ? :P
<water> yes
<water> but that rant had a point
<water> i doubt it made much difference, but maybe (just maybe) lmaxson will read that and take pause
<water> or any other tunes-interested programmer
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0613
IRC log ended Tue Jun 13 00:00:01 2000