IRC log started Sat May 27 00:00:01 2000
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0527
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<water> hey
<hcf> hey
09:10am
<eihrul> hey
<water> fyi i figured out how to systematize slate
<water> eih: did you read yesterday's rant?
09:20am
<eihrul> not yet
<eihrul> oh, about literals and such?
<water> sure
09:50am
<water> hm
<water> i could lay out the formalism in the form i'm currently using to formalize slate, but i'd rather wait until i have an easily digestible form for people
<water> the bottom line is that i figured out how slate relates to arrow in a very direct way :)
* water/#tunes waits for people to pummel him for relating such ideas together
10:50am
<dirt> pummel?
<water> that is, when people actually get around to reading what i put into their scroll-buffers
<water> "pummel: To beat, as with the fists; pommel: The thief was pushed and pummeled by an angry crowd. See Synonyms at beat."
<dirt> we really miss a lot
<dirt> i know what it means
<water> who does?
<dirt> you and i
<dirt> we're like "out of phase"
<water> is that what you mean by "miss a lot"?
<dirt> yes
<dirt> what i meant was "why would you think people would pummel you for that?"
<water> do you mean just timing or semantic meaning?
<water> oh
<water> because "arrow is a load of nonsense"
<water> or so has been hinted at for many years
<dirt> youlian likes it
<dirt> so there must be something to it :-]
<water> i'm aware of that
<dirt> and i hope you never got the impression that that's the way i felt
<water> but how credible is his (and your) opinion to others?
<dirt> good point
<dirt> i just don't think it's helpful to dwell in negativity
<water> not that that's the determining factor, but it figures in to the situation
<dirt> you'll get plenty of chances to question yourself when people actually *do* attack your ideas
<water> in that case, do you have any constructive topics we might pursue?
<dirt> sure
<dirt> something i should have asked long ago
<dirt> i'm in linux at the moment
<dirt> what do i do to view your postscript files
<dirt> (my printer's out of ink)
<water> oh
<water> ghostview
<dirt> in linux?
<water> yes
<dirt> ok
<dirt> i've used it in nt
<dirt> didn't realize that was the solution here as well
<dirt> thx
<water> it's linked to from sourceforge or the alladin site
<water> np
<dirt> and as far as pursuing other topics
<dirt> why don't you give a shot at explaining your epiphany that links slate and arrow to me
<water> it's not much of an epiphany. i merely lost sight of the mapping a while ago when trying to explain the language to people
<water> the slate object system is actually capable of a graph formalism
<water> the nodes are nameless per se
11:00am
<water> following the directed edges, or arrows, corresponds to selecting a namespace
<dirt> i'm with you so far
<dirt> is the graph a single rooted tree?
<water> the metaphor gets more complicated when you account for the fact that you have meta-objects and delegation all over the place
<dirt> or is there multiple inheritance possible
<water> inheritance is not the relation of the graph
<dirt> ok
<water> it's the relationship of the namespace structuring
<dirt> i just assumed that inheritance would follow the namespace structure by default
<dirt> otherwise, what makes it "object-oriented"?
<water> no, that makes things a bit tricky to analogize
<water> because of tree-rewrite techniques
<water> which ultimately result from inheritance
<water> have you read my explanation of ":" in the tutorial?
<dirt> no
<dirt> abi :
<hcf> abi: slate tut
<abi> slate tut is at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-tutorial.html
<dirt> i will tho
<water> the fact that result slots are everywhere means that the graph is always orientable, whether or not the namespace relation is a hierarchy
<water> k
<dirt> but what i'm wondering is whether the graph of the namespace is limited to a tree-like structure
<water> and the ".." slot is merely another namespace relation, so the hierarchy cannot really exist if we expect such a slot to always be available
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<water> i think i just gave most of the answer to your question
<water> hey l440r
<dirt> ok
<dirt> i think i've got it now, thx
<I440r> water!
<I440r> hi
<water> anyway, the core slate language just consists of graph-traversal and rewriting
<I440r> been having someproblems here,
<I440r> trying to get my firewall working
<I440r> grrrr
<water> #linpeople
<water> sorry, man, we're busy
<I440r> heeh no im not askign for help her :)
<I440r> hehe
<I440r> here
<water> ok
<I440r> ill get it figured eventualy :)
<dirt> nice to see you "miss" with people other than myself water :-]
<water> so anyway, the abstract semantics of the core slate language are pretty simple
11:10am
<water> at another level, though, formalizing the interface for the language requires another set of constructions (still using graphs, of course)
<water> (god damn it, i want a web db framework for slate/arrow/tunes right friggin now!)
<dirt> what happens when one continually traverses to ".."
<dirt> is it a closed loop?
<dirt> and if so how big?
<dirt> or is it possibly an endless seemingly random sequence of addresses?
<water> what eihrul and i decided on for the interim was a hierarchy where the root namespace contained itself
<dirt> ok
<dirt> that seems to majorly cut into the whole idea
<water> how so?
<dirt> but i can understand it makes sense for initial implementation
<dirt> i don't know
<water> if you come up with a better, more systematic approach, let us know
<dirt> i don't have a systematic approach
<dirt> but i can see if someone could create one that is complex it would be really interesting
<water> we can change it after the initial library is built up.... in fact it would be a cool thing to do to show off strong modularity
<dirt> it's a weird thing
<dirt> to get "out" of the tree-mode of thought
<water> yes it's a non-trivial process
<dirt> the especially hard thing is to come up with a solution that scales
<dirt> for any given number of nodes it's easy to create "some" framework
<dirt> but for the general case...
<dirt> nto so
<water> well, i'm looking at higher-order graph rewrite theory
<water> it's not impossible, it just requires thinking in different terms
<dirt> right
<water> for example, the issue i hinted at earlier about the interface to slate
<water> objects names must be other objects
<dirt> ahh
<water> s/ects nam/ects' nam/
<dirt> everything gets back to that self-referential thing
<dirt> no matter how you slice it
<water> ...
11:20am
<water> i merely extend the system to do things that previous systems haven't
<water> before, it just wasn't dealt with... ascii text was the common denominator, and "that was that"
<dirt> somehow there has to be a way to create a certain "type" of node that "jumps" to the other end of what would have been the tree hierarchy
<dirt> creating a loop of some sort
<water> that's where thte evaluator comes in to play
<water> s/thte/the/
<water> and the meta-objects, of course
<dirt> hmmm
<dirt> i have to read your tutorial
<dirt> i sure wish my printer wasn't out of ink
<water> and the rest of the slate docs, i suggest...
<water> you should probably look at again after reading the tutorial
<dirt> and your original point was that the structur of arrow nicely maps to this same namespace directed graph structure in slate?
<water> i still need to finish outlining the arguments that slate is *necessary* for tunes hll, not simply *sufficient*
<dirt> ooh 
<water> hm
<dirt> maybe i stuck a "directed" in there where it wasn't warranted
<water> directed works
<dirt> if the namespace is to have any use i think it has to be directed doesn't it?
<water> arrow is basically a specific kind of slate environment
<water> with the emphasis on *basically*
<dirt> or can the slate environment be a non-directed graph?
<dirt> sorry -- there's probably a better technical term to indicate a graph that is not a directed graph
<water> no worries
<water> if you make the ".." implict, then it's non-directed
<water> on the other hand, if you "added" combinators to the language
<water> then every directed link could have an inverse (if specified so at the meta-level)
11:30am
<water> btw, "clone" is very much like an identity combinator
<dirt> abi combinator
<water> :P
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<hcf> abi: dads?
<abi> dads is at http://hissa.nist.gov/dads/terms.html
<hcf> dirt: check out dads
<dirt> thx hcf
<water> it doesn't have "combinator"
<hcf> http://wombat.doc.ic.ac.uk/foldoc/foldoc.cgi?combinator
<hcf> dirt: check out foldoc too
<water> there you go
<dirt> thx
<dirt> i still don't see how the lang w/o combinators would naturally be a directionless graph
<dirt> for the root node (where .. is defined to be itself) i understand there is some ambiguity
<water> the links are still oriented, but you can travel both ways
<dirt> but for every other node, the "naming" of that node creates a direction
<dirt> sure -- traveling across the links doesn't mean you don't know whether you're going "up" or "down"
<water> i'm saying that having ".." as inverse to the name makes the link bi-directional
<water> but that doesn't make the link non-oriented
<water> i guess the term was mis-applied
11:40am
<dirt> it just seems to me that the "naming" of a node's path means that each link does have a direction
<water> yes i know
<dirt> though i suppose that it's possible that that direction is only relevant wrt a specific node
* water/#tunes sighs
* dirt/#tunes doesn't know whether to sigh or shrug
<water> the issue is not that important
<dirt> sorry to waste your time then
<water> :/
11:50am
<water> well i guess i screwed that up, then
<dirt> what?
<water> the conversation just stopped dead in its tracks
* dirt/#tunes refrains from mentioning the negativity thing again
<dirt> well, almost refrains :-]
<hcf> well well
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html
12:00pm
<dirt> in any case, what *is* important that you think worth talking about?
<water> that's my point, i lost the thread of conversation myself
12:10pm
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<water> hm
* water/#tunes does some much-needed thinking
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12:20pm
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<water> re
12:30pm
<dirt> lo
<hcf> abi: AbiSource is a project developing a suite of open source desktop productivity applications (such as AbiWord) at http://www.abisource.com/
<hcf> abi: AbiWord is a open source cross-platform word processor by AbiSource at http://www.abisource.com/products.phtml
12:40pm
<hcf> abi: CodeCatalog is an open source source code search engine at http://www.CodeCatalog.com
<water> hcf: why does abi need those?
<hcf> the first 2 was just cuz they use her name ;)
<hcf> water: u get tril's post to slate@ yet?
<water> just now
12:50pm
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<water> depression simply sucks
01:00pm
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<water> hey kyle
<Kyle_L> hello
<Kyle_L> I read the stuff you put on IRC yesterday.
01:20pm
<Kyle_L> You asked if you need strings in Slate.  I would imagine you need them only to communicate with humans.
<water> that's not what i meant
<water> hold on
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<Kyle_L> sorry water, I have to go.  
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<water> ok
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01:30pm
<water> would anyone else care to discuss things?
02:50pm
<water> i'll take that as "no".... cay
<water> cya
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03:00pm
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<water> hi again
<smklsmkl> hey water
<smklsmkl> what's new?
03:40pm
<water> smkl: slate specs
<water> check the logs... i'll be posting to the mailing lists some time this weekend
03:50pm
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<water> hey lar
<lar1> hey water
04:10pm
<water> eih: did you read the stuff i was talking about earlier about slate?
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05:00pm
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<water> hey mark4
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<I440r> hi dood
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<water> hm
07:50pm
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<water> hey
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0528
IRC log ended Sun May 28 00:00:01 2000