IRC log started Wed Apr 26 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0426 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn125.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: adams.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [01:13am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [adams.openprojects.net] -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [01:13am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- Netjoined: adams.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- corey [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Fare] by devlin.openprojects.net -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [01:48am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes -:- corey [coreyr@net255ip95.parklink.com] has joined #tunes -:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Fare] by devlin.openprojects.net -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [03:47am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn125.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-17-11.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf18.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (naar huis) -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[msx-osl-17-11.ppp.cybercity.no]) -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-12-18.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/ -:- mode/#tunes [-o Fare] by ChanServ -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us810.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn125.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn125.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -Kla2work(rsahlen@varley.openprojects.net)- Server varley.openprojects.net will be shutdown for a short maintenance in 5 minutes... -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us810.javanet.com] has joined #tunes >>> hcf [nef@me-portland-us810.javanet.com] requested PING 956777844 from TUNES -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from verne.openprojects.net [12:36pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn125.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp170.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- ns_ [ns@dialup220.serv.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp170.lvdi.net]) -:- SignOff ns_: #TUNES (ns_ pHEARS tHE cOOL cODERS oF oWiRC.... NOT!) -:- Ghyll [karltk@msx-osl-16-47.ppp.cybercity.no] has joined #tunes -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes Tunes done yet? No. Tunes is like Micros~1's Cairo, in that respect :) :-) 02:40pm Ghyll: What is your niche in the project of Tunes? Kyle_L: currently not much. I work on a source documentation project which shares some of tunes' goals. Kyle_L: tunes' goals with regards to the meta-tool philosophy. 02:50pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us902.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- ChanServ has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: http://tunes.org/ -:- dirt [mindfvck@niantic0317.mohawk.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System: http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language: http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr]) -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z) -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [03:53pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- dirt [mindfvck@niantic0317.mohawk.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (Ping timeout for dirt[niantic0317.mohawk.net]) -:- Kyle_L [kyle@cr168790-a.nmkt1.on.wave.home.com] has joined #Tunes -:- dirt [mindfvck@niantic0317.mohawk.net] has joined #tunes abi: amigos is Advanced Mobile Integration in General Operating Systems at http://www.student.cbs.dk/birger/AMIGOS/ ftp://ftp.diku.dk/pub/diku/distlab/amigos/ abi: emerald is a distributed OOPL at http://www.cs.ubc.ca/nest/dsg/emerald.html http://www.diku.dk/research-groups/distlab/Research/Internal/DistOOS/Emerald/index.html ftp://ftp.diku.dk/pub/diku/dists/emerald/ abi: ellie is a distributed OOPL at http://www.econ.cbs.dk/people/birger/Ellie/ ftp://ftp.diku.dk/pub/diku/dists/ellie/ -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) 04:50pm -:- Albatross [eat_me@148.235.12.158] has joined #tunes -:- Albatross [eat_me@148.235.12.158] has left #tunes [] -:- nate37_ [nate@cx83983-d.irvn1.occa.home.com] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp209.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- ult [ult@user-38lc6c6.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- vvater [water@tnt-9-80.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- vvater is now known as water hello all hey hm water: found some papers that use the same intermediate language for induction variable detection and constant propagation (which by extension means type analysis as well) ok that's good i happen to have been considering the language design quite a bit... like the presence of root, top, etc 06:50pm and particularly how the location of primitives and their syntax affects language utility also the use of gated single assignment versus static single assignment and having nodes that do nothing but insert new information into the data-flow (for declarations and such) hm it's been a while since i looked at GSA vs SSA * water/#tunes pulls down acd&i acd&i doesn't even mention gated single assignment oh really i only found it in a research paper on using demand driven ssa (as they call it) to do constant propagation hm so how does gsa differ? ok "demand-driven" means something to me :) instead of just having merge nodes you also have a predicate that determines which successor should be taken (or rather you refer to the predicate in the merge node) oh, you were asking about demand-driven? :) heh well gsa really but sure oh, well the demand-driven part is from the use of UD chains as the main tree upon which analysis is done versus the control flow tree which makes it very much easier to detect data-flow characteristics another nice thing is that all induction variables form strongly connected components in the graph :) of course so, what has come of your considering? :) are you anywhere near being able to discuss the support of bmo-orientation? oh well, i was mostly toying with ideas, for instance add-slot and remove-slot *as* *such* seem rather wrong acd&i ? in what way? abi acd&i damn eih: well, i'm just thinking in terms of the conceptual structure i suppose water: if you just tell me what the acronym stands for, I'll figure out the rest for myself oh sorry, "advanced compiler design & implementation", 1997 ok. thanks. I JUST got that book! heh 07:00pm kyle: it's very much oriented towards static languages, so it's no bible of compilers * Ghyll/#tunes added it to his purchase queue soon time for a dequeue.. Why did you assume I would not know that it was for static compilers? because you don't seem like a dynamic, high-level languages kind of guy * Ghyll/#tunes feels entertained :) May you give an example of a "high-level" language? well there are plenty, but being a hll kind of guy and merely grokking a hll are 2 different things e.g. smalltalk or scheme or haskell * water/#tunes is branching through url's from today water: 's tunes mail doh! hey dirt are you an anti-low level guy? heh sort of :-] i like counter-balancing the mass culture in programming brb 07:10pm g'night -:- SignOff dirt: #TUNES (Leaving) oh 07:20pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us305.javanet.com] has joined #tunes re hcf hi ready for some good political discussion? ;) 07:30pm oh yeah heh did u see the log? ellie and such yes i've seen them thx it's really neat to see the ideas people put into morphic/squeak of course morphic/squeak is still very much a piece of bloatware well, centralized bloat is usually better than duplicated, distributed bloat yeah that's true, and the morphic bloat *is* centralized of course it's a current project to streamline it 07:40pm abi: acd&i is Advanced Compiler Design & Implementation at http://www.mkp.com/books_catalog/catalog.asp?ISBN=1-55860-320-4 hcf: hey, could you hunt me down some papers on dynamo and instrumentation schemes for adaptive compilation? :) hm eih: how are you at hacking towards the tunes partial-eval idea? eihrul: perhaps determing what to inline becomes problem :) 07:50pm huh? well, perhaps i'm misunderstanding what you mean by partial-eval hm the glossary entry -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) well, no i'm not again the problem is determining where to apply it hm because maintaing dependencies for invalidation and such consume memory :) n/m i'll bring it up later in a better context which is why i'm looking for info on instrumentation * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. 08:00pm could always take a naive approach such as? just partially evaluating everything possibly and getting rid of previous work when you run out of memory :) i was thinking more in terms of slate semantics oh, ok... but you asked me :) i'm just the implementor :P e.g. caching objects vs gc'ing them in exchange for generators which re-produce the objects on demand heh well, what's the particular difference here? dunno i was hoping we could match terms well, actually, the former is definitely easier than the latter :) ok that tells me quite a bit. then a generator infers that you're producing more than one similar object from it, no? right, like lambda-abstraction well, yes, but in slate, detecting such similarities is not trivial you think so? -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (yawn) and i'd think sharing of structure would be more than likely for such classes of objects keep in mind, i've just got done working out refactoring and patterns 08:10pm automating this process is of course highly non-trivial, but that's the point of an open compiler - users can add the patterns dynamically eihrul: Why are you considering inlining now? Is not inlining an optimization? uh, yes... and that's my job :P that's what i'm getting pai... er not getting paid for :) yeah making slate faster than molasses ;) I can see support for Part. eval. but that can be seperate. Oh, I was not aware that slate needed inlining to be fast so early in its design. p/e is supposed to be unified from the compiler optimization level to the semantic one... they are the same 08:20pm inlining appears to me a method of acheiving PE, not the same as PE. so you don't think it's like applying a lambda-expression? eihrul: http://caesar.ics.uci.edu/kistler/index.html http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/dyncomp/ http://www.cs.washington.edu/research/projects/unisw/DynComp/www/Related/ inlining is a method of applying a lambda-expression and applying a lambda-expression is strongly related to p/e the *timing* of doing so is optimization hcf: thanks i.e. whether you do it before a loop compiles or every time within the loop I would not say the two are identical because the former is HOW to achieve the latter (WHAT). then you totally missed my point inlining is an optimization, and not the only way of achieing PE. AHEM *timing* when you inline or p/e is the optimization Yes, I do not see your point. eihrul: have u looked at the sites from rev-pl's "Run-Time Code Generation" section? if you say PE's are only optimizations then they are not very special. * water/#tunes sighs rev-pl? why the f*** do i try? tunes-review-programming_languages KL: *neither* is an optimization the *timing* of how it is done to migrate the code to the hw level is the optimization hcf: oh, will where i mean "tunes migration" by "migrate" 08:30pm I do not see how a compiler optimization, inlining, and a semantic optimization, PE, are the same thing. hm UW that's just a few miles away from where? from me, moron and where are you? heh. hm maybe i'm in seattle aha! * water/#tunes finally located the files referred to in the tunes email on open oo -:- nepenthe [Anti@ppp032.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes hi nepenthe water: where? hoy nepenthe hmmmm.... -:- nepenthe is now known as _ruiner_ <_ruiner_> greetings hcf 08:40pm -:- SignOff Kyle_L: #TUNES (Leaving) ftp://progftp.vub.ac.be/dissertation/1994/vub-prog-phd-1994-01/ oops i mistyped that ftp://progftp.vub.ac.be/dissertation/1994/vub-prog-phd-94-01/ -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) bbiaf -:- _out [ANORMAL@200-191-39-213-as.acessonet.com.br] has joined #tunes hi out -:- epsas [epsas@adsl-61-119-209.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #tunes aloha hi epsas 08:50pm hmmm.. linux.com has already changed the URL to your interview water yes i know tril got the temp url water, do you know if there is a telnet program hidden somewhere inside of Squeak or Morphic? yes there is need directions? a few pointers would be great :) open a class browser okay look under network/telnet wordnet/telnetmachine you can pretty much enter "TelnetMachine open" and doIt within a workspace and get a telnet 09:00pm I keep getting "Not yet implemented" when I try that hm it works on mine did you type it in exactly like i did? oh wait. you have to do it in Morphic Ahhh yes that message should be re-writtten to say that, since that's the only error it handles it's great finding someone else who is using squeak :) yeah well i dig into squeak quite a bit damn it, i hate playing phone tag afk 09:10pm BOO! :) Aggh! hehe so does anyone have something good to talk about? I've rolled out 40 feet of ethernet cable so that I can sit on my front porch with the laptop I'm not sure if that makes good convo matter, but it's a good thing heh i once used 50' rj-11 cable to hook up my cassiopeia to the 'net while on the rooftop :) hmm, never tried the rooftop - I am afraid that my neighbours are too conservative for that 09:40pm I'm reading CHris Phoenix's tutorial - now getting the hang of smalltalk ok 10:00pm -:- SignOff _out: #TUNES (Leaving) hm this OOUI stuff just looks like a rehash of Smalltalk-80 (aka Squeak) it's funny how we all say everybody should read AMOP, but some days i'd be content with someone reading the st/80 specs from 1980 for crying out loud 10:10pm what OOUI stuff? a link posted to the tunes mlist today check the online archives actually, it's not worth it 10:20pm -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. irc.linux.com is currently down due to server problems relating to a temporary network move. We believe it'll be back up tomorrow. -:- SignOff epsas: #TUNES (Ping timeout for epsas[adsl-61-119-209.mia.bellsouth.net]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp209.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp209.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hm i don't suppose anyone has good insights on the nature of symbols? unfortunately, functions from symbols to expressions don't seem to fit into the ordinary computational model bleh i need to find someone to discuss this with in real life it's a good thing i actually know someone now that i can talk to at this level, but he has a rather hectic life -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp209.lvdi.net]) 11:20pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp209.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes well, good night all (not that i'll be sleeping soon ;) -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that-a-way!) 11:40pm [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0427 IRC log ended Thu Apr 27 00:00:01 2000