IRC log started Wed Mar 22 00:00:00 2000
<water> well damn it i wish i had a good solution to these issues in slate
<eihrul> still tinkering with rewriting and containership?
<water> yep
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0322
<Zagreus> cool
<Zagreus> water: are you actually enlisted in the navy?
<water> cool?
<water> yes
<water> hm zag it's probably relevant to the Slate question that it forms a find of file system
12:10am
<water> s/find/kind/
<water> which makes it more natural to base an os on
<Zagreus> oic
<water> sort of like a block-structured language
<water> (sort of)
* eihrul/#tunes (wave (to : /people/water)).
<water> heh
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<water> cya eihrul
12:20am
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<nate37> heya
<dalvarez> greetings, nate37
12:30am
<nate37> do u know of any port scanners for ms windows?
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<dalvarez> off topic -> msg
<hcf> nate37: u gonna bring that noise to every channel?
<nate37> sorry
<nate37> hcf: heh... sorry again
<water> hcf: what'd you think of that interview?
<hcf> good answers
<water> you think we'll get any good windfall?
<hcf> perhaps
<water> ( i have no idea who reads linux.com that we would care about)
<hcf> ppl into fadish alternatives
<water> :P you *had* to say that
<Zagreus> heh
<water> btw i updated the slate pages so the language references are url's now
12:40am
<water> i'm also near ready to address how to handle the literal system, at least for inductive stuff
<water> which covers quite a lot
<hcf> (off topic) humor (to me at least)
<hcf> i was just looking at http://www.python.org/download/Contributed.html
<water> hm that reminds me, though, that i need some sort of conceptual structure for the namespace hierarchy
<hcf> followed the link to the Vaults of Parnassus
<hcf> how ironic that the result is a massively disfunctioning cgi
<water> heh
<water> hm i can put logic, integer math, and text into modules
<water> control-flow traditionally depends on logic, but maybe that can be generalized
<water> no that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but hm
<water> i think that i'll just take the squeak namespaces as is and adapt them a bit
<water> actually if i take logic and just simplify it into the substructural parts, then i can separate out everything in fine detail so that control flow will only depend on as little as necessary
12:50am
<nate37> night
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<hcf> water: tulsa, ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/hb/hbaker/home.html
01:20am
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* Fufie/#tunes yawns
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<Kaufmann> So I just got back from the hospital
05:00am
<Fufie> have you been ill? :(
<Kaufmann> yep
<Kaufmann> "look ma, no appendix!"
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05:10am
<Fufie> kaufie: augh.. hope you're feeling better now :)
05:20am
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<Kaufmann> back
05:30am
* Kaufmann/#tunes pokes Fufie
<Fufie> huh?
<Kaufmann> just checking to see if you were still around
<Fufie> In another window and in another virtual desktop :)
<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> _man_, this sucks
<Kaufmann> I'm stuck home for at least a week more
<Kaufmann> brb
05:50am
* Fufie/#tunes yaaawns
<Kaufmann> back
<Fufie> do you watch european fotball in brazil?
<Fufie> like the champions league?
<Kaufmann> hrrrm. I know people who do, but I personally don't like football much
<Fufie> good :)
06:00am
<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> the most famous Brazilian is Pelé, who is known world-wide
<Kaufmann> even in the miserable Indian countryside
<smoke_> even i've heard of him :)
<smkl> hmm, i wonder who is the most famous scandinavian
<Kaufmann> Hamlet?
<Kaufmann> Erik the Red?
<Kaufmann> Alfred Nobel?
<smoke_> but i also know Romario, isn't he Brazilian too?
<smkl> yeah, and Bebeto and Ronaldo
<Kaufmann> egads
<Kaufmann> it's just sad, y'know
<smoke_> soren lerby? :)
<Kaufmann> a country of 180M people, and all the outside world knows about it is its football team :P
<smoke_> kaufmann: don't you people export bananas? :)
06:10am
<Kaufmann> actually, Brazil is the largest exporter of soy
<smoke_> and what about coffee?
<Kaufmann> coffee, oranges, sugar... Brazil is a huge agricultural power. And yet people starve.
<Fufie> smkl: Linus Torvalds :)
<Fufie> (that is if we include swedish finns as scandinavians :)
<Kaufmann> ah yes, Linus Torvalds
<Kaufmann> Bjarne Stroustroup
<Fufie> we denounce Bjarne :)
<Fufie> actually I think ABBA is the most famous scandinavians..
<Fufie> kaufie: but Brazil is a young nation
06:20am
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<Kaufmann> back
-:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (on my way)
06:30am
<Kaufmann> hey, by the way, I finally got ISDN! Yay!
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06:40am
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* Fufie/#tunes goes nuts
<eihrul> wha?
<eihrul> "C code run!"?
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03:30pm
<Fufie> not _that_ bad
<Fufie> just the regular "go nuts" as in getting caught by the shrinks and locked up for a month or two
<Fufie> currently I am a bit uncertain whether I am an orange or a lemon
<Fufie> the cream tastes great at least
<Ghyll> agent lemon
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<Fufie> not awfully peachy
<Fufie> no wine in the house to make me sleep well tonight either
* Fufie/#tunes is depressed
<eihrul> seems to be a lot of that going around
<Fufie> the pretty things are going to hell
<Fufie> they wore it out, but they wore it well
03:40pm
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<water> hey all
* Fufie/#tunes goes off to shoot himself.. afk
<eihrul> hey
<Fufie> hi water
<water> hi ghyll, long time no see
<Ghyll> water: hia. been a bit 'out'
<water> hey fufie i figured out multi-methods are easy in slate
<water> i was too drugged up yesterday though to get any good work done on the slate docs
<Fufie> water: ok.. tell me later.. I am going to try to blow my head off with a shotgun.. if I fail I'll just get some sleep
04:00pm
<Ghyll> water: what kind of medication are you on ? 
<Ghyll> fufie ;)
<water> fufie:? what's wrong dude?
<Ghyll> fufie's having pms
<water> ghyll: just some pain-killers for migraines
<Fufie> water: bad day and bad week and bad month
<Ghyll> water:ah.. migraines suck. or so I've been told.
<eihrul> water: elaborate on the multi-methods thing :)
<water> eihrul: it's simple
-:- Ghyll has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: it's simple
<water> remember how (object message) is like (object object) or even (message message) ?
<eihrul> yes
<water> well, just picture a message that sits in a namespace but doesn't treat its enclosing namespace as an object with conceptual behavior
<eihrul> so nesting message objects... to the arity of the message :)
<water> it just takes objects into its slots and computes on them, producing a new object in that namespace
<water> yes basically
<eihrul> well, that is simple, since it just follows from the intuitive implementation of multi-methods
<water> and it follows from the slate object model :)
* water/#tunes dances a little jig
<eihrul> well, it is just as translated into the slate object model :)
<Ghyll> nap time
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04:10pm
<water> hm squeak on bare hardware is being proposed for sourceforge
<eihrul> i thought there were already a few unorganized efforts to do just that?
<water> yes they've conglomerated privately it seems
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<Kaufmann> OzTeX runs... at last!!!!!!!!!!
<water> hi kauf
<water> where do you get oztex btw?
<Kaufmann> I got it from the CTAN mirror at dante.de
<water> k
04:30pm
<eihrul> oztex?
<water> it's a paticular tex macro package
<water> particular, even
<water> i think it's specialty is books(?)
<Kaufmann> no, you're thinking of another OzTeX
<water> there are two? :)
<Kaufmann> This one is a TeX distribution for the Mac
<water> oh that
<hcf> http://www.ucc.ie/info/TeX/oztex.html
<water> n/m i thought it was a latex macro alternative
<Kaufmann> ah well
<Kaufmann> anyway, did I mention I came back from the hospital this morning?
<water> not while i was here
<Kaufmann> well, I came back from the hospital this morning
<Kaufmann> "look ma, no appendix!"
<water> heh
<Kaufmann> brb
04:40pm
<water> hmmm lgpl bochs
04:50pm
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<Kaufmann> back
<water> wb
<Kaufmann> thanks
<Kaufmann> took longer than I thought
<Kaufmann> ever try to do #2 after abdomen surgery?
<water> never had the chance :)
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<Kaufmann> not very fun, I assure you
<water> i'll take your word for it
<water> anything to discuss?
<Kaufmann> not really... I'm still catching up with other stuff
<Kaufmann> ... and listening to my new Wakeman CD
<water> which wakeman?
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<water> wb
05:10pm
<Kaufmann> Rick
<eihrul> re
<water> cool the yes guitarist?
<Kaufmann> keyboard player
<water> oh yeah
<water> so what sort of music does he play solo?
<Kaufmann> it varies, wildly
<water> btw i saw yes in concert last november
<Kaufmann> cool
<Kaufmann> w/ Rabin on guitar, right?
<water> yep
<Kaufmann> nice
<Kaufmann> Brazil's really shitty in that respect... the last decent rock concert we've had around here was Deep Purple, in early '99
<water> :P
<Kaufmann> we're supposed to have the third edition of Rock in Rio this year, which is a big-ass rock festival... Pink Floyd is supposed to come... amongst others
<water> pink floyd still plays?
<Kaufmann> yep
<water> other than gilmour?
<Kaufmann> yeah, Wright too
<water> what about waters?
<Kaufmann> well, I'm not really sure of his status, but AFAIK _Pulse_ had all three
<Kaufmann> _Division Bell_ had just Gilmour and Wright
<water> yes i have db
<Kaufmann> And Mason too
<water> what are they playing now?
<water> any new music?
<Kaufmann> I wouldn't know... I haven't even heard _Pulse_ yet
<water> pulse is rather old, actually
<Kaufmann> of course, it'd be _really_ cool if Syd showed up for a reunion gig :)
<water> i mean, more than 4 years old iirc
<water> heh
05:20pm
<Kaufmann> anyway, Wakeman's latest release is called _Return to the Centre of the Earth_, which is a follow-up to _Return to the Centre of the Earth_
<water> huh?
<water> did you type that correctly?
* water/#tunes checks UBL
<Kaufmann> urgh
<Kaufmann> sorry
<Kaufmann> ...which is a follow-up to _Journey to the Centre of the Earth_
<water> oh
<Kaufmann> it's an awesome album... full choir and orchestra, plus over a dozen guest musicians (Ozzy, Rabin, Tony Mitchell)
<Kaufmann> Wakeman's very big on epic
<water> hm
<Kaufmann> anyway, there's a lot of nice stuff I'd never heard on this album - _The Masters: Rick Wakeman_... it kinda reminds you of Yes, but without Jon's constant squealing :)
<water> i would hardly refer to it as squealing but oh well
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<Kaufmann> just kidding, I actually like Jon
<water> does he do ambient music as well?
<Kaufmann> not AFAIK... nothing that _I_ would describe as "ambient" anyway
<water> hm oh well
<Kaufmann> I'm trying to find some more-or-less obscure 70's prog rock... Starcastle, Brand X, Camel
05:30pm
<Kaufmann> it's very hard, considering that _nobody_ has any of this stuff
<Kaufmann> not in Brazil anyway
<Kaufmann> I'm obsessed with a Dutch band called Trace, which only released three albums (on vinyl, even)... of which I only have one
<Kaufmann> brb
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<water> wb
<Kaufmann> back
<Kaufmann> if you really want to hear what Wakeman sounds like, you can just go look for it on Napster
<water> 56k modem dude
05:40pm
<Kaufmann> so? so was mine until last week, and it didn't stop me :)
<Kaufmann> grrr
<Kaufmann> it just pisses me off that the record companies still think they can get away with charging R$ 50 for a CD
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05:50pm
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<Kaufmann> brb
<Kaufmann> back
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06:00pm
* Kaufmann/#tunes has just gotten a flash of inspiration for a half-hour medley of Magical Mystery Tour, Strawberry Fields, I Am The Walrus and A Day in the Life, in prog style
<Kaufmann> *shudder*
<nate37> huh?
<eihrul> it is better you don't know...
<nate37> probebly
<Kaufmann> okay, I've made up my mind
<Kaufmann> I'll record and release on the Net a conceptual album with nothing but prog-rock covers of Beatles songs
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06:20pm
<water> does anyone want to work on tunes Right Now?
<eihrul> define "work on"
<water> constructive discussion counts
<Kaufmann> define Right Now
<water> before you responded counts as Right Now
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<Kaufmann> heh
<Kaufmann> well, I'm willing to help
<Kaufmann> then again, I'm noisy, right?
<water> well take a look at the most recent slate stuff please
<water> i put some interesting stuff in "syntax" and of course "details" and "semantics" have updates
06:30pm
<nate37> what assembler does everybody use?
<Kaufmann> water, there's something weird in the syntax page
<water> everybody uses assembler? since when?
<water> kauf: which is that? (ignore the ebnf, btw)
<Kaufmann> "myObject (Var1 : (.. foo))" <= you talk about ../foo instead of (.. foo) in the following paragraph
<Kaufmann> it's either (/ (.. foo)) or just ../foo , right?
<water> well it's the same thing right now
<water> sorry i didn't update everything
<nate37> water: what asm do u use>
<water> ":" includes a prelude to pick a namespace
<lar1> nate:  Dude
<water> which you can modify
<water> nate: i don't if i can help it
<lar1> nate:  In case you haven't noticed, water is a HLL dude
<nate37> lar1: hmmm didn't know that.. sorry
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<Kaufmann> done reading
<water> btw, i'm trying to include a section describing details of meta-object implementation and protocol
06:40pm
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<water> from there, i want to get into inductive constructions using objects of things like integer math, combinators, and algebras and logics in general
<water> what do you think of that?
<Kaufmann> what's an inductive construction?
<water> where you define "0" and a method called, say, "increment" that returns another object in the same set (namespace)
<water> you build the set of objects incrementally from a starting point
<Kaufmann> ah
<water> you can of course define a whole programming language grammar that way
<water> the hll spec mentions "quotienting" and i'm also trying to address that
<water> and it's not easy
<water> so, what do you think?
<Kaufmann> I'm not really sure
<Kaufmann> it's just too abstract for my wee little head
<water> bah
<Kaufmann> boo
<water> i suppose i could ask on usenet somewhere
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<Kaufmann> well, what did you expect? You know damned well that I'm not as literate on the subject as you.
<water> it's not a subject, it's just an idea
<Kaufmann> I mean "the subject" in general
06:50pm
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<GameProg> hey all :)
<water> hm perhaps comp.object or something
<Kaufmann> Hello GameProg
<water> hi game programmer
<GameProg> (^_^)
<water> are you familiar with tunes?
<GameProg> I was wondering if somebody could tell me a little about linux
<water> try #linpeople please
<Kaufmann> egads
<GameProg> ...
<GameProg> this is interesting.  cinfusing, but interesting all the same :)
<GameProg> have fun everyone.  I'm outa here
<Kaufmann> what?
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<Kaufmann> LOL
<water> i think he meant the tunes site docs
<Kaufmann> dunno... maybe the it's just that the Linux fumes have gotten to his head
<water> hm perhaps comp.lang.functional
<Kaufmann> oh, I get it now
<water> or comp.logic
<water> get what?
<Kaufmann> I was trying to figure out what incremental constructions had to do with Slate.
<Kaufmann> now I did.
<Kaufmann> d'oh
<water> ok
<water> well do you have any thoughts on the idea?
<water> i'd like as much as possible to have actual mathematics, not computations, in slate
<water> (yeah that's a weird way to say it)
07:00pm
<water> for example, integers, rationals, reals
<water> where if you don't have native real # support, slate can figure out how to code it
<water> or at least make equations work in the abstract sense
<Kaufmann> It makes sense to model these concepts in mathematical terms starting from simpler objects (as opposed to just having "literal" objects), in that it'll provide a solid mathematical base, but it'll require a lot of condition-checking and heuristic optimisation to make it computationally viable, considering that contemporary computers are built with "literals" in mind
<water> not necessarily
<water> i mean, bignum's aren't hard to grok, right?
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<Kaufmann> what was the last thing you said?
<Kaufmann> "not necessarily"?
<water> "i mean, bignum's aren't hard to grok, right?"
<water> computer registers can be described as bit-field objects with operations as messages for instance
<Kaufmann> I mean this sort of thing: e.g., if a chip already has a built-in notion of an integer, and has been optimised to do math using _that_, it would introduce a huge amount of overhead to, say, use Church numerals, represented as actual objects, as the exclusive representation of integers in Slate, just because they're mathematically clean. (more)
<water> shorten your sentences for crying out loud
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<Kaufmann> Eventually, you'd _have_ to add rewrite that high-level representation into another one which is actually computable
<Kaufmann> (in the sense of feasibility)
<water> hold on let me read that
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07:10pm
<Kaufmann> sorry, I'm on a roll :)
<water> that's bs
<water> we're not going to just let slate code stuff however it wants to
<water> (e.g. church numerals)
<Kaufmann> hrrrm?
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<water> well let's put it this way
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<water> hi sammy
<water> i'd like the slate system to be able to take advantage of arbitrary primitives as a basis, and to make this as simple as possible to do, but not to give slate a declarative problem with no strategy other than mathematical cleanness and let it go
<water> i'm learning from the master of long sentences ;)
* eihrul/#tunes introduces #tunes to the "Enter <_/" key.
<Kaufmann> okay
<water> eih: the what?
<eihrul> Observe... it is a lovely key situated on the right side of the keyboard, rather large compared to the other keys and exceptionally useful
<Kaufmann> eihrul, that's a poor rendition of the Return key...
<eihrul> well, that's a rendition of the key on my keyboard :)
<water> oh ascii art
<water> anyway
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<water> i'm just suggesting being able to use a generalized version of the existing self-hosted implementation to migrate primitives
<Kaufmann> urgh... gotta go
<water> e.g. 16-bit to 64-bit
<water> hum ok
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<water> eih: got thoughts on this?
<eihrul> not that i have no thoughts, i just don't have any contradictory remarks right now :)
<water> well i'm looking for more than just mere contradiction
<eihrul> well, adapting primitives to slate seems self explanatory :)
<water> how so?
07:20pm
<eihrul> well... they're primitives... provided with the implementation
<water> ok you're just stating the greatly obvious
<eihrul> that was the point
<eihrul> you asked for it.... you got it
<water> i was thinking more along the lines of dynamic compilation of primitives
<water> i.e. top-down vs bottom-up
<water> well i suppose it's a mobius issue anyway
<eihrul> rmm, you referring to primitives expressed in slate itself?
<water> yes
<eihrul> rmm, well it is much the same issue of expressing slate primitives in any language used to implement slate (be it slate or otherwise)
<water> hm okay this isn't going anywhere
<water> what about quotienting?
<eihrul> quotienting?
<water> one sec
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<eihrul> you'd need to propagate primitives up the implementation layers...
<eihrul> unless you utilized a really intelligent compiler >:)
<water> explain
<water> http://www.tunes.org/HLL/requirements.html <- under "Extensibility"
<water> you'll find "Quotienting"
* water/#tunes mumbles "damned Tunes illiterates"
<water> :)
<eihrul> well, hard-ware supported integer math.... 
<eihrul> if you wished to provide it in slate, the implementation language would have to be provided with it as well in some manner or another
<water> like i said, it's a mobius issue
<eihrul> just another regression i suppose :)
<water> not if we reflect properly
<water> well anyway, what would be the problems with having, say, all the integers or rationals in a slate namespace?
<water> implementationally-speaking, of course
07:30pm
<water> you obviously can't list them :)
<eihrul> no problem with that
<eihrul> i think its cleaner than having specially handled literals for slate
<water> why?
<water> what do you do if the user asks the system for "(Integers size)"?
<water> or better yet, "(Rationals size)"?
<eihrul> return floating point infinity :)
<water> lol
<eihrul> or some suitable representation
<water> well there's an obivous difference between an object made by cloning root and one made by equational specification
<eihrul> okay, can you give me a concise definition of quotienting :)
<water> it's that "up to isomorphism" phrase
<water> like saying how a rational number solves a bunch of equivalent multiplication equations of integers
<water> or integers for addition over the naturals
<water> but in general, it means collecting all objects in the system satisfying some condition
<eihrul> so rmm, defining an equivalence of sorts 
<eihrul> or that possibly as well :)
<water> yes exactly that
<eihrul> so it could also relate to 'classes' and 'prototypes' as well?
<water> for example i've already considered using meta-behavior to make singleton objects
<water> yes like that
<water> or you can use equivalence to make classes out of all clones of an object
<water> perhaps including all modifications within some band of slots
<water> this is where you get into defining the naturals for example
* eihrul/#tunes suddenly recalls something from the church's thesis and computatily dealing with functional equivalence that probably relates to this. :)
<water> so that (0 increment) is always 1
07:40pm
<water> yep
<eihrul> er ctc paper
<ult> Can you redefine 0?
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<water> ult: it should result in making a new protected environment
<water> but yes
<water> i would say that meta-behavior of zero should protect the system code against things like that
<water> of course, slate will not have just one zero
<water> >:)
<water> comments?
<water> ping?
<eihrul> pong?
<water> are you satisfied with what i'm describing?
<eihrul> sure
<water> well it all hinges on proper meta-behavior handling
<eihrul> redefinition is handled by immutability in this case
<water> right
<eihrul> and otherwise having many representations of zero is controlled by which context zero is drawn from 
<eihrul> (if zero is an object)
<water> yeah zeroes in separate namespaces
<water> which reminds me
<water> certain bmo's will have to clone namespaces in order to provide protection
<water> which can get thorny because you're making new unnamed slots in the namespace above that one
<water> and at some point you'll want to keep that new namespace
07:50pm
<water> so we'd need another primitive (i believe) to rename slots
<water> but getting a slot without a name is a bit un-intuitive
<water> you'd have to manipulate the expression that created it
<water> hm this all seems do-able
* eihrul/#tunes kicks /.
<water> why?
* eihrul/#tunes notes the secondary Slashdot effect: the server stays up, but paid bandwidth limits are exceeded, thus preventing anyone from accessing anything but a bandwidth exceeded for this customer page.
<water> you're talking about the multics site, aren't you? :)
<eihrul> yes
<water> i can't believe that article actually counts as news
<water> isn't that what everyone thinks when they hear about shared resources?
<water> ok you're not helping me focus
<water> if i can effectively answer this "quotienting" point, then i can write up part 2 of "Slate as Tunes HLL"
<water> get my drift? ;)
08:00pm
<water> damn it there must be ONE newsgroup that can address quotienting
<lar1> water:  Have any good plain-text papers I can read on my calc?
<water> how much ram?
<lar1> 300k methinks
<lar1> I'd like it less though ;)
<water> lar1: alt.binaries.e-book
<water> you'll find plenty there
<lar1> water:  Ok.  Thanks.
<lar1> Is there a news program on Bespin?
<water> heck if i know
<water> news.bespin.dhs.org ?
<hcf> water: sci.math and sci.math.research mention quotienting
<hcf> tho its not much
<hcf> its the only real hits gotten via deja
<lar1> Not a server, a reader
<water> ok
<water> lol a reader on bespin?
08:10pm
<lar1> There are mail readers...
<water> " i can read news directly on my server"
<lar1> I want to read news.earthlink.net from bespin...
<water> please don't
<lar1> Why not?
* water/#tunes pictures server load going up quite a bit
<lar1> How would one little user using bespin to read news cause a lot of load?
<water> i don't know and i don't care
<lar1> Heh, ok :)
<hcf> lar1: stop annoying water w/ noisy details
<lar1> hcf:  I have :P
08:20pm
<water> abi cogsci is Cognitive Science at http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/
08:30pm
<water> abi cogsci is also at http://cogprints.soton.ac.uk/
<abi> okay, water.
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08:40pm
<water> hcf: so do you suppose sci.math would work?
<water> actually comp.theory would sort of work
<hcf> lots of possible places
<hcf> couldnt hurt to try 'em
* water/#tunes sighs
<water> i just looked at the putnam contest results for this year
<water> i really miss that one
* water/#tunes attempts a crosspost to the two newsgroups
<lar1> Hmm
<lar1> Looks like there aren't any good technical papers on the ebooks newsgrops
<water> i guess i'm pretty much a math person if i miss taking the putnam test :)
<water> technical papers like what?
<lar1> Computer Science, Math, Physics, anything, I don't care... as long as I can understand and most importantly... learn
<water> lol
08:50pm
<water> you expect people to scan that stuff on their own?
<water> and convert it to text without diagrams and such?
<lar1> There has to be _somthing_ of the like online...
<water> yeah it's called html and postscript
<water> but educational stuff on the web is terrible
<water> (for k-12)
<lar1> Hmm
<lar1> Well then non k-12 perhaps...
<lar1> Ohh! Mabye I'll read the arrow paper on there...
<water> heh it's called research
<lar1> Aw man! :)
<water> read a proglang tutorial
<water> or just a programming essay, say, on graphics stuff
<water> damn it!
<water> use #{}
<lar1> Ok, ok... sorry... I thought it was approiate for this channel
<water> unless you're actually talking about tunes or arrow, not really
<lar1> Noted
09:00pm
<water> ok i posted the question
09:20pm
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<water> hm someone criticizes the s-expression as an abstract syntax tree basis vs oo graphs as ast's
<water> and it even talks about supporting code-optimization
09:40pm
<eihrul> someone criticizing the s-expression?
<eihrul> what is wrong with the noble sexp?
<water> eh?
<eihrul> <water> hm someone criticizes the s-expression as an abstract syntax tree basis vs oo graphs as ast's
<water> it doesn't allow for things like annotations of nodes without changing the tree shape
<water> where annotations can include virtually anything useful in ast's
<eihrul> and how do oo graphs allow for annotation independent of the tree?
<eihrul> unless you're talking about meta-objects....
<water> look at the post to comp.lang.lisp or look into the squeak parser classes
<eihrul> that's nice and all.... but what am i looking for?
<water> hold on
<water> some replies to that post list a few further reasons
<water> of course, slate has no choice but to abandon a sexp basis, because of its namespaces
<eihrul> okay, they're talking about graphs versus sexps :)
<water> otherwise you'd have to be able to say no matter what where  asymbol came from
<eihrul> in which case, yes, sexp is really inadequate as an intermediate form
<water> eih: didn't i already say that?
<eihrul> well the 'oo' part threw me off
<eihrul> it is superfluous :)
<water> bah
09:50pm
<eihrul> though i think they're arguing about the particular way sexp map to language objects
<eihrul> a particular list node could have annotations, if you forsook the cons cell
<water> yeah that's called "oo" i believe :)
<eihrul> not really
<water> this is pointless
<water> i think you're disagreeing just on the basis of "i don't like your terms"
<eihrul> well, i don't believe the term applies at all
<eihrul> not about its definition
<water> that's what i meant
<eihrul> but let's drop it at that...
<water> and it only re-inforces my point
<water> go to sleep
<eihrul> it's only 10PM
10:00pm
<lar1> later!
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10:20pm
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<^josh^> # Appears as XENO.
<^josh^> (#G;10E<10M1) hey!
<^josh^> (#G1::E010M1) Hello
<^josh^> (#G810E910M1) Well this is fun, anyone in here?
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-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Reserve your copy of BitchX-75p3 for the Nintendo 64 today!)
11:50pm
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0323
IRC log ended Thu Mar 23 00:00:01 2000