IRC log started Wed Mar 1 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0301 -:- _ruiner_ [DIY@ppp364.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf22.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Ping timeout for nate37[ppp-206-117-27-141.dialup.pcmagic.net]) -:- sucka [DIY@ppp408.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp364.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- sucka is now known as _ruiner_ -:- _ruiner_ is now known as ljg -:- ljg [DIY@ppp408.wi.centurytel.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (this sheep forgot to rule the world) -:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- smoke_ [smoke@vengeance.et.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-41.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes hi fufie morning smoke :) 05:10am how's life this early morning? good morning! morning thomas :) thomas: you got any experience with postgresql? nope, but I'm using mysql now ok, I am setting up pg with odbc here.. have done that earlier with mysql but I need pg now 05:20am what are you using it for? currently I use it to make cire dumps.. 46M and growing ;) s/cire/core/ ok I'll use it in a couple of systems.. and I need a transaction mechanisme so mysql won't do 05:40am yepp, that's when you need something else mysql can core dump as well though :) 05:50am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-150.s404.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hm something to add to the GUI page perhaps: http://mrl.nyu.edu/meyer/projects/etchapad/images.html 06:00am -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff smoke_: #TUNES (see you later) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-137-116.s370.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn148.delft.casema.net]) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn148.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port141.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-184-82.s82.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port141.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port205.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port205.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-249-98.s606.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh9-port63.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rares[wtrb-sh9-port63.snet.net]) -:- NetSplit: adams.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [12:20pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [adams.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: adams.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp333.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port56.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- fazghoul [DDD@193.95.77.227] has joined #TUNES fufie: pong -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port56.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- SignOff fazghoul: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:00pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us231.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is norton.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from norton.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 13 24:47 EDT(from norton.openprojects.net) -:- norton.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(7)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(407)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(451)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(16)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(858)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(29)] (avg. 29 users per server) -:- [total channels created(264)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !norton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 9 (8 clients) !norton.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Tue Feb 29 21:12:50 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ hcf ] [ thomas ] [ smoke ] [ Fufie ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] [ Plundis ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.855 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes * smoke/#tunes has to get sleep .. bye all -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (z!) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp130.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- PING Register first.(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lewis.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- lewis.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(6)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(396)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(440)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(17)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(836)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 27 users per server) -:- [total channels created(256)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lewis.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 13 (12 clients) !lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Your default nick is already in use -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#tunes:9)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ eihrul ] [ hcf ] [ thomas ] [ Plundis ] [ smkl ] [ Fare ] [ Fufie ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 13.403 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- sherlock [mindfvck@63.66.69.241] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff sherlock: #TUNES (Ping timeout for sherlock[63.66.69.241]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us231.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port56.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh7-port56.snet.net] has left #tunes [Segmentation] -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lewis.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from turtledove.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is turtledove.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from turtledove.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from turtledove.openprojects.net) -:- turtledove.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(3)] 0% -:- [global users on irc(391)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(449)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(16)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(840)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 28 users per server) -:- [total channels created(254)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !turtledove.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 6 (5 clients) !turtledove.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Tue Feb 29 21:19:11 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ eihrul ] [ thomas ] [ Fufie ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] [ Plundis ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.686 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by turtledove.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from king.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is king.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from king.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from king.openprojects.net) -:- king.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(64)] 8% -:- [global users on irc(383)] 46% -:- [invisible users on irc(449)] 54% -:- [ircops on irc(16)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(832)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 27 users per server) -:- [total channels created(253)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !king.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 92 (90 clients) !king.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Wed Mar 1 03:22:21 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:8)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ eihrul ] [ thomas ] [ Fufie ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] [ Plundis ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 8.702 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- ult [ultima@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- ult [ultima@bespin.dhs.org] has left #Tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-98.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes yo lo did you get the basic stuff out of that hybrid paper? (i.e. pages 1 through 6) no time tonight.... :( ok 200 page novel to read by tomorrow, essay, physics homework then you shouldn't be on irc i won't be, in an hour or so let's hope so 05:30pm well just so you know, i'm really working hard to sort out ideas on distribution, concurrency, maths etc, macros and rewrite using a unified approach + s/+// the advantages of not having homework... another reason i dropped out 05:40pm -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by king.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Invalid argument -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Invalid argument -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Servers exhausted. Restarting. [2] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lewis.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- lewis.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(8)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(394)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(438)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(832)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 27 users per server) -:- [total channels created(254)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lewis.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 13 (12 clients) !lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#tunes:11)] [ TUNES ] [ lar1 ] [ abi ] [ air ] [ water ] [ eihrul ] [ thomas ] [ Plundis ] [ smkl ] [ Fare ] [ Fufie ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 74.978 secs!! water: odd... -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES to repeat for the logger: also, i'm working on some ideas that will affect the "base prototype" objects used for standard distros, like different ways of implementing containers filed, but did it get approved? (which is related to what i mentioned above) eih: not yet well, you can file all you want... but it's the approval that counts :) eih: so? it's the concept -:- sherlock [mindfvck@63.66.69.194] has joined #tunes it can be legally argued, in fact and that woman deserves some serious karma hi sherlock hello water water: eh, is it any different from someone auctioning themselves on e-bay? yes 06:00pm much different auctioning yourself interferes with human rights' issues doesn't a patent on the human body? however, the process of reflectively imrpoving yourself in a new and creative way can/should be patentable being that we're all reasonable fascimiles... no you shouldn't be able to patent that (see previous statement) should be patentable :-] * water/#tunes considers filing for himself :) the back-royalties would be astronomical.... i disagree (and i don't even know what the rest of the discussion is about :-] ) sher: a british woman filed for a patent on herself -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) ahh -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by lewis.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from turtledove.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is turtledove.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from turtledove.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from turtledove.openprojects.net) -:- turtledove.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(3)] 0% -:- [global users on irc(390)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(434)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(824)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 27 users per server) -:- [total channels created(251)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !turtledove.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 6 (5 clients) !turtledove.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Tue Feb 29 21:19:11 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:11)] [ TUNES ] [ sherlock ] [ lar1 ] [ air ] [ water ] [ eihrul ] [ thomas ] [ Fufie ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] [ Plundis ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.804 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES well the wording would be crucial, i'm guessing the blurb i see is from today's wired news details would be necessary right you should look them up if you're interested anyone knows a patent lawyer (and doesn't want to pursue this him/herself, and/or doesn't reside in the US) write me at wrong@crosswinds.net please -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes i'll patent me, my dog, and whatever else i can think of :-] well most of us are too busy to deal with issues like this me too but it seems like a windmill worthy of assault :=] well find a web .org site interested in such issues and make the suggestion btw, did you want to discuss anything, being on #tunes? no -- not really just checking in because a co-worker had pointed me here okay who's your co-worker? and also i'm a great fan of fare's from the days when i used to subscribe to gnu.misc.discuss youlian ah oh! so you work on mindweb, too? right 06:10pm i'm the arrows guy, btw i don't know arrows, sorry i know youlian was interested in something you wrote though it's like mindweb, only a bit more daunting conceptually i assume that's what you're talking about yes abi arrow? okay damn the bot's down url? well, arrow is a homo-iconic information manipulation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/ http://www.tunes.org/~water/ well ,there you go :) thx -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by turtledove.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is carter.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from carter.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from carter.openprojects.net) -:- carter.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(76)] 9% -:- [global users on irc(386)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(440)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(826)] -:- [unknown connections(1)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 27 users per server) -:- [total channels created(253)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !carter.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 110 (109 clients) !carter.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Tue Feb 29 21:12:22 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:12)] [ TUNES ] [ abi ] [ sherlock ] [ lar1 ] [ air ] [ water ] [ eihrul ] [ thomas ] [ Fufie ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] [ Plundis ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.938 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES water -- Push's thing you mean? yes you may be right but the first step could still be really useful :-] yeah whatever water: Do you know of a ps2pdf program or are you just suguesting I could look for one? lar: get ghostscript it comes with a ps2pdf Ok otoh, it is in itself a ps viewer/interpreter, so there's not much of a point :) 06:20pm Yeah :) water -- i concede his aims are more academic than mine, but aren't we better off looking for commonality ? why commonality? mark-up sucks as a common web language, for instance because if someone has a good idea that's part of a larger idea (and the validity of the larger idea may be in question), especially if this person is working with an open-source attitude, doesn't it make sense to cooperate? sherlock: no why not? if the cooperation can be limited to the part that is useful to both parties? cooperation on ideas that are closed just means your shifting from one exclusive perspective to another s/your/you're/ i don't know exactly what you mean "ideas that are closed" can you elaborate please? if you don't mind :-] ideas that can't accomodate new perspectives sorry, i happen to believe in "arrow or bust" and arrow is an extreme in ideas but cataloging knowledge isn't something that's inherently limiting is it? (i know that sounds arrofant, but i can explain) s/arrofant/arrogant/ i don't mind arrogance :-] eek cataloging knowledge is limiting indeed what i mind is "misplaced" arrogance even sorting knowledge from fantasy is a noisy, closed process closed? i don't understand hm or should i read your arrow stuff and come back in a week :-] perhaps closed-minded okay i'll partially concede that with the caveat that there are ways to mitigate the "noisiness" or "closedness" if one is paying attention the thing is that arrow is a fundamental shift in the basis for thinking no, i disagree what part of what i said is wrong? nothing explicit you assume a mitigation will solve anything 06:30pm you seem to be resigning yourself to the fact that any attempt to gather data is doomed or am i not getting it? no the paper goes into an idea called "ontological relativism" like as in "everything is subjective" ? it's not nihilistic, as you seem to suggest sort of okay i want to make it formal that's not something i disagree with er... formalized within arrow ideas (there's a distinct difference) well nothing in arrow basically contradicts any of your CTO's published philosophical ideas (afaik so far) but he doesn't seem to understand the full implications of the philosophy when attempting to computationally apply the ideas imo write him and tell him why :-] youlian tells me he's already read my paper i'm sure he'd find the time to consider your thoughts on the subject he gave me his comments, and i replied, but i don't know how that worked out i don't think he considers me to have anything worthwhile to contribute maybe -- maybe not he's highly intolerant of stuff he doesn't agree with :-] there's that ontological relativism again so i've heard doesn't sound familiar does it? heh brb 06:40pm okay well hm is there anything you'd like me to explain or talk about? eih: still here? i'm here but i'm about to go to bed ok i'll print out your article (it looks sort of tough for reading on-screen) when i get to work on fri (my printer's out of toner here at home) well i find it nice to talk to mindweb people and i'll come back to ask you all about it -- promise webmind actually :-] at the very least it gives me confidence to look for investors oh sorry from what i can tell that's the easy part :-] though not something i concern myself with well, i can compare arrow to webmind there you go :-] and that translates to competition ;) unless you guys decide to hire me ;) heh not my dept either, sorry :-] np if i have to convince every employee one at a time, i will hahaha very good you think i'm kidding? no i think it's funny though good sherlock: Water is __dead__ serious sorry -- i have a weird sense of humor i know i still think it's funny thx lar i hope that doesn't offend you water no, it doesn't -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) i'll be the first to admit that i'm obsessed.... -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes and then to tell you Why i'm obsessed :) 06:50pm trust me, i've done more research than some people with phd's Yay! I can read the paper now! no reason to doubt now if only i can get more people to help me -:- SignOff abi: #TUNES (Ping timeout for abi[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by carter.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Your client may not be compatible with this server. (from adams.openprojects.net) -:- Compatible clients are available at ftp //ftp.undernet.org/pub/irc/clients(from adams.openprojects.net) -:- Closing Link: TUNES[206.63.100.13] by adams.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[206.63.100.13]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lackey.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lackey.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lackey.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lackey.openprojects.net) -:- lackey.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(74)] 9% -:- [global users on irc(390)] 47% -:- [invisible users on irc(441)] 53% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(831)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 27 users per server) -:- [total channels created(245)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lackey.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 86 (85 clients) !lackey.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@206.63.100.13 " -:- TUNES [tunes@206.63.100.13] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES Free Reflective Computing System http://www.tunes.org/ || Slate Language http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html -:- topic set by water [Tue Feb 29 21:13:26 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:10)] [ TUNES ] [ lar1 ] [ air ] [ water ] [ eihrul ] [ thomas ] [ Fufie ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] [ Plundis ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.087 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes Will i not grok this at all if I don't grok Principa Cybernetica? no, pcp isn't *that* necessary oh good, the web site is back up hm they've published a book, and it's online pcp? yes 07:00pm what is ment by the term 'atom'? familiar with atomism? you can't analyze an atom into smaller parts by logical deduction -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us327.javanet.com] has joined #tunes more generally, within a formal (inductively-defined) system, certain objects can't be resolved into expressions of other objects hcf: hooked another webmind worker one by one, i'll catch quite a load of fish :) water: oh? yes, youlian referred him here tonight is not a good night for the net, it seems * eihrul/#tunes goes off to participate in his slavery "de jeur." yeah, do your homework gah, you say that so enthusiastically.... -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) i'm not much of a role model, i suppose 07:10pm -:- Netjoined: king.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.134.140.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes hm the pcp fellows don't know that tunes points to them was there just a fatty netsplit? you'd figure that they'd look at tunes.org lar: yes -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #tunes water: Ok, I read what I missed you didn't miss much I know :) 07:20pm hm pcp i think adheres to closely to platonic realism yes it's extremely implicit to their work i suppose i should have read between the lines concerning the "scientific basis" for their work hm the usual visual programming languages implicitly force a constructive (hence, inductive) approach when considering direct-manipulation but to get anything other than trivial co-recursive equations defining an object would seem to require some weird visual represeantations 07:30pm -:- Closing Link: TUNES[206.63.100.13] by lackey.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[206.63.100.13]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lewis.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- lewis.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(8)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(397)] 48% -:- [invisible users on irc(431)] 52% -:- [ircops on irc(15)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(828)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(30)] (avg. 27 users per server) -:- [total channels created(250)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lewis.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 13 (12 clients) !lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 2 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- [Users(#tunes:10)] [ TUNES ] [ Fare ] [ lar1 ] [ hcf ] [ air ] [ water ] [ thomas ] [ Plundis ] [ smkl ] [ Fufie ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.240 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us327.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us327.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- abi [abi@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes * water/#tunes wonders if anything useful can be communicated today * hcf/#tunes doubts it hm tril was on irc on monday damn and i missed beholder as well 07:50pm i really should start using the tunes mlist again tell 'em about all the fun papers u'v read recently heh "fun" well i do have the url's (automatic download logging) 08:00pm heh. a virus got sent to the squeak mlist so of course it spawns discussion on squeak environment security and how to make viruses in squeak 08:10pm -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port98.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- HooHaa [joe@slappy.wnyip.net] has joined #tunes heh 08:20pm hello, hoo haa Hello uh water, where can I quench my thirst for an existing reflective system? huhhuuh * rares/#tunes groans maude perhaps or any lisp any implementation with a self-hosted evaluator counts I was amazed to find out about the existence of the symbolicas lisp machine recently www.opencore.org yeah seen it they are developing an opensource microchip cool so's f-cpu.tux.org what would be the ideal hardware for a reflective system? bleh opencore is down thanks opencores? maybe an fpga or dpga? sounds reasonable down with fabs up with home made replicators whats the biggest coding need for tunes at the moment do yo think? actual code :) he he seriously, the hll what do you think of bottom up with c or top down with lisp? hll ok either way works eihrul's working on slate in lisp Ill check it out but we're planning on getting a c based implementation once the lisp code demonstrates the ideas sufficiently Is there any reflective system out there such that one thread coulddie and its mirror keep the system up? what's a mirror of a thread? 08:30pm 2 reflective process in other words er each capable of being a kernel i don't even think that exists as such so you could recompile one while the other is in operation unless you ran two copies of the same environment :) am I wrong in thinking thats the ultimate goal of tunes (or a way to explain it)? we don't have definite enough specs to say for sure i'd say that tunes could be *made* to handle that thats the generl idea thought right?in terms of what it should be able to do? but it wouldn't be a necessary part of the implementation (at least it sounds cool to me) tunes is not a feature list you're talking about a feature isn't that the bottom most meaning of reflection though? no any thoughts on a better analogy/ ? definitely reflection just means being able to treat code as data hmmmm tunes is about doing that very well Ill chew on that,thanks np funny cuz lots of programming languages can reflect on the dvd list we were arguing what is a program apparently legally it doesn't even have to turiung complete yeah the notion of program is relative * water/#tunes nods even cllicking a button is programming heh. the tunes pages mention something about that, in fact heck self has it all over the place has what? cliocking = programing almost oh yes squeak has it too, with the morphic ui (borrowed from self) excuse me, by code do you mean machine language, lisp or both? which reference to "code"? 08:40pm reflection just means being able to treat code as data" you realize though if ppl stop reading as a part of their daily routine things could get seriously ugly hh: any thanks preferrably the source language rares: stopped reading altogether? well that'll never happen or replaced reading with something better? :) but if they don't get past the level of ppl magazine we're fucked oh you mean intellectual literacy yup well, go do something about it I am :) thx for the vote of confidence :) np :) * water/#tunes wonders if he just encouraged rares to post to slashdot :P ;) Heh 08:50pm -:- SignOff HooHaa: #TUNES ([x]chat) it's anazing how people change "reflection" into a buzzword when there are clear explanations on tunes.org 09:00pm -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rares[wtrb-sh3-port98.snet.net]) i find no reason to believe that Goertzel groks the applicability of the co-induction principle. 09:30pm -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- nate37 [______@ppp-206-117-27-156.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff nate37: #TUNES (Killed (NickServ (This nick is reserved by another user))) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn155.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- nate37 [______@ppp-206-117-27-156.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes ? hi nate 11:30pm hi what's up. not much today some reading mostly like what? the webmind stuff also some stuff on concurrent oo cool. yeah and boring, too have we met before? I don't think, I was wondering the same thing, because it seemed like you knew me or something. But I don't remeber you. ok well i'm the arrow guy ? abi arrow? arrow is a homo-iconic information manipulation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/ http://www.tunes.org/~water/ is abi a dictionary? arrows instead of bits, basically (but it's not basic at all) abi abi? i guess i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or an Artificial Idiot or braindead or a crack addict infoslut or stubborn abi tunes? tunes is a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated or AOTA abi unix? i heard unix was not a single entity or not anything that a complete redesign and rewrite won't fix abi: good girl :) :) :-) abi minix? i don't know, nate37 abi a good book? i don't know, nate37 oh well abi computer> abi computer? wish i knew, nate37 abi: human? wish i knew, nate37 she's just an infobot. she stores what we put there HAHAHAHA oh well. so what do you mean by "I'm the arrow guy"? it's my pet project oh, ok. any experience in OS development? i wrote that 50-page draft paper and filled up the tunes mailing list with lots of discussion about it and tunes yeah i hacked an os together in college (barely) i mostly do research on languages and os design 11:40pm right now, i'm working on the slate language cool... I'm reading "Operating Systems: design and implementation" right now. ok i read that once playing with minix... how did you like it (the book that is)? not very seriously, but oh well -:- nate37_ [nate37@ppp-206-117-27-156.dialup.pcmagic.net] has joined #tunes heh the book was ok, i'm not really into os coding very much it seems good so far. I just want to learn about all that stuff. i'm sort of a fan of oses built out of high-level languages like squeak :) ok :-) or tunes hopefully, via slate * water/#tunes crosses his fingers good luck yeah well the language design to meet tunes requirements is a real bitch ow, sound painful. for the most part, the language is pretty clearly defined but there are ambiguities where we've been evaluating a lot of different options there are online docs (for your viewing pleasure :) abi slate? slate is a unifying/hybridizing of self/beta/lisp at http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html :-) a lot is still missing, but the core language ideas are definitely there which reminds me, i gotta upload another update okay Do you know of any good uses for a old 80286? I have one just sitting there. hm there's gotta be something. a bookend? :) maybe :-p 11:50pm hm something embedded that will do something. maybe experiment with forth on it abi forth? it has been said that forth is at http://www.forth.org or "until" or one of those tiny languages what are they? you have a 286 and never used forth? it's a really tiny language that runs really fast in low memory, but is extensible in forth, every word is a stack-manipulator you can code the interpreter in a few K of assembly code of course, there are many forths for old pcs umm... does it run in a os, or just pure machine code? you can get both kinds more impotanly, what can I do with it? well it's a programming language, you figure it out :) but seriously well... why not use C/C++? i'm not sure... whatever a 286 can do eek because coding it in forth will most likely take less time and memory you can run apps with more features in forth than in c (for the same amount of memory) cool... is the the syntax close to anything else? um well that's the downside check out the tutorial on www.forth.org it's not terrible, but it takes getting used to well... is there anything I can make with a 286 like a security system or something (a program that has a log of everytime a door opens/closes)? -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp59.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes ok, I know that that's lame... but you get the idea. yeah i know what you mean hi eih or a timer to turn on devices. hello eihrul sure, with some simple parallel port work and a solder gun yeah... I'll have to find some specs... but do you have any ideas? btw, forth is usually used as an embedded language [msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0302 IRC log ended Thu Mar 2 00:00:00 2000