IRC log started Thu Feb 10 00:00:01 2000 try it multiple times in mulitple non ~/html dirs you mean run it again? oh get a new copy from /tmp/slate [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0210 it's trying (unsuccessfully) to access the template etc from your directory er navbar oops 1sec probly complaining about the declaration of $dir too reget it cool "no files to process" was that 1st or 2nd time? well i already processed the files, so 2nd k and i just tested it one one file from ../bu s/one one/on one so its working fine now yes thank you :) 12:10am put ur description and keywords in the template now oh yeah 2am here... 'nite -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Leaving) any special formatting for keywords' contents? -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from adams.openprojects.net [12:16am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net adams.openprojects.net -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-50.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn71.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1011.javanet.com] has joined #tunes content="aword, a phrase, blah blah" should be fine k 12:20am -:- NetSplit: varley.openprojects.net split from adams.openprojects.net [12:23am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [varley.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: varley.openprojects.net adams.openprojects.net -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-10-50.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn71.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1011.javanet.com] has joined #tunes hm well i'm gonna concentrate on groking rewrite now, unless you have anything else reget /tmp/slate/slate-template.html i put Slate in the keywords list, in case s-engines dont parse that from elsewhere why wouldn't they parrse the f***ing title? they should but just in case -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from hogan.openprojects.net [12:28am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn71.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes refs needs in slate in the title ok, updated the site with the new template * water/#tunes thinks about this HM. it seems someone's doing all the suggesting about web-design to people better off just working on the language design :) 12:30am gimme a break. my pages already look better than those for Cecil * hcf/#tunes shuts up -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-10-50.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [12:36am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: sterling.openprojects.net split from verne.openprojects.net [12:39am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [sterling.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: sterling.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes 12:40am -:- NetSplit: wang.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [12:53am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [wang.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: wang.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: merril.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [12:57am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [merril.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: merril.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn71.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES (Ping timeout for thomas[193.217.63.152]) -:- NetSplit: irc.linux.com split from adams.openprojects.net [01:22am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [irc.linux.com] -:- Netjoined: irc.linux.com adams.openprojects.net -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1011.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: adams.openprojects.net split from devlin.openprojects.net [01:24am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [adams.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: adams.openprojects.net devlin.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn71.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: lackey.openprojects.net split from devlin.openprojects.net [01:39am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [lackey.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: lackey.openprojects.net devlin.openprojects.net -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1011.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn71.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- NetSplit: adams.openprojects.net split from forward.openprojects.net [02:24am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [adams.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: adams.openprojects.net forward.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@15dyn71.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff thomas: #TUNES (Ping timeout for thomas[193.217.63.152]) -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- smoke` [Xes@130.161.32.9] has joined #tunes -:- smoke` [Xes@130.161.32.9] has left #tunes [] -:- Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- Fufie [stig@tunnel-44-15.vpn.uib.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[15dyn71.delft.casema.net]) -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh5-port77.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn235.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smokie [tw026024@zaalf12.twi.tudelft.nl] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: adams.openprojects.net split from merril.openprojects.net [07:51am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [adams.openprojects.net] -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (KVirc 1.0.0 Millennium BETA 3) -:- SignOff smokie: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial809.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes aw, eihrul isn't here I wanted to mock him what has he done? he said it would take a long time for me to write an interpreter for the language we (me and him) were discussing yesterday and I've already written 30% of it since last night granted, most of the functionality will just be provided by the underlying Scheme system... at least until I start using the MOP to modify _that_ too. hello? hello is a multi-threaded operating system written in Standard ML and can be found at http://www.ics.hawaii.edu/~esb/prof/proj/hello/ egads 08:30am hehe (upside-down-A) character string S, (flipped-E) operating system O such that name(O) = S (Kaufmann's Conjecture) :) sorry.. had to pick up a phone that was making loud ringing noises starting off with Scheme or a Lisp is a quick way to get waay ahead in language design you should get it fixed. My phone has never been known to make loud ringing noises; I'm perfectly satisfied with it Fufie, you bet :) but what is the alternative, really? Coding in the support for the primitive data types in what, (I shudder at the thought) C? no, thanks incremental development starting from a reflective Lisp system is the way to go. BBL -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd/ as leaves fall on still waters/ she is here no more.) 08:40am -:- smoke is now known as avoozl When I want to do something mindless to relax, I reinstall Windows 95. -- Jean-Louis Gassee Gakuk! -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) what was that Alan Kay quote about smalltalk making all programmers users or something? -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- thomas [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes for our finnish friends: what was that Alan Kay quote about smalltalk making all programmers users or something? 09:50am -:- avoozl is now known as smoke -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh2-port140.snet.net] has joined #tunes KVirc 1.0.0 'Millennium' BETA 3 by Szymon Stefanek umm looks like you can do taxes over the net from Linux :) 11:30am -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Ping timeout for rares[wtrb-sh2-port140.snet.net]) -:- mibin [mibin@an1-846.tiscalinet.it] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh4-port147.snet.net] has joined #tunes -:- mgx [mgx@vd-g404.student.utc.sk] has joined #tunes * Fare/#tunes alien -i ocaml and hevea RPMs on bespin -:- SignOff mgx: #TUNES (mgx) zsh: segmentation fault ocaml ouch 01:10pm maybe I ought to have used the "RH 6.1" rpm instead of the "RH 6.0" one? bespin has old libc ... grumble * Fare/#tunes gets the .tar.gz, then isn't there a 2.04 deb now? ld.so doesn't complain smkl: in potato. But bespin is slink I wouldn't want to dist-upgrade a machine in .wa.us when I'm in .fr It must be possible, but doing it without either experience or a fallback tactic would be preposterous or disasterous * Fare/#tunes plays brightside.wav once again * Fare/#tunes just wanted to run hevea on bespin * Fare/#tunes is cleaning WhyNewOS and converting it to LaTeX * Fare/#tunes is also looking for nice quotations to put below each chapter's title (what's the name for these, already?) 01:20pm RT-Linux methods patented on /. do they license for use in any DFSG-free software? 01:30pm yes but they make restriction to BSD and HURD which is really stupid since Debian BSD and Debian Hurd are coming out evil 01:40pm * Fare/#tunes make ocamlopt.opt * smkl/#tunes installs his prompt generator hehe prompt generator? it generates $PS1 02:00pm with a fortune cookie in each, from a special cookie jar? no, that would be precmd() bespin doesn't have fortune ?! yes it does -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (Read error to rares[wtrb-sh4-port147.snet.net]: No route to host) even before I did an apt-get install maybe you're using the wrong path? hmm it's just not in my path -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh3-port80.snet.net] has joined #tunes /usr/games/fortune indeed * Fare/#tunes doesn't understand why "games" are in /usr/games, except for all those X arcade stuff in /usr/X11R6/bin UN*X filesystems suck, anyway 02:10pm yeah we need /usr/X11R6/games go tell that to the FSSTND guys (whatever the name is today) maybe #debian people will care -:- SignOff mibin: #TUNES (Ping timeout for mibin[an1-846.tiscalinet.it]) I think we need a meta file format with meta paths we need get rid of the file concept file equals collection of bytres sorry can't do it it would cause the universe to iumplode who cares about collections of bytes? I want objects. and in what form shall we store those oifbjects it's still a collection of bytes *WE* won't store them. The system will. in what form and it could use trits instead of bits, or 20-bit words, for all I care dude were talking about breaking rules as solid as 2+2=4 nope, win2k would have caused the destruction of universe already if that was possible with current technology It could use quantum logic, or dimension 2.5 fractal data storage, instead of linear sequences actually they're electronic signals but asnyway I don't give a fucking damn, as long as it works you can't control analog as easily or manipulate it as easily in a meaningful way as digital it could use the strong force instead of electric signals, or armies of monkeys, for all I care well the designer needs to give a damn NO the IMPLEMENTER does it could be chemical agents instead of electrical signals the DESIGNER needs to be somewhat down to earth the user can do almost anything they like it could be fluctuations of The Force the DESIGNER needs to solve the problem of the USER in a way _affordably feasible_ by the IMPLEMENTER and how would you record those fluctuations he doesn't need make things STRAIGHTFORWARD to the latter 02:20pm files are the cheap solution to the implementer -- quite justifiable 20 years ago. Completely obsolete nowadays, yet historically entrenched the IMPLEMENTER is living within the limits of the laws of the universe which are much more conservati ve than say everyday experiences Next you're going to tell me the Universe is obsolete you don't get it. I do get it have you read the glossary entry on orthogonal persistence? things are built from blocks have you ever used an HP28? or maybe even a wordprocessor? yes I have used word processors do you look at the sequences of bytes in a word processor? no but the computer program has to in order to put it on the screen btw, disks are usually divided in cylinders, "sides" and sectors, which is not sequential they're still read sequentially once they're mapped and searched and memory is organized as a dynamic tree of cache, not as a sequential array and data on disk is scattered among several blocks in a non-sequential way and entries in a hash-table are not sequential and the video gun scans across the screen not randoml;y _some_ things are intrinsically sequential _some_ things are intrinsically hierarchical _some_ things are intrinsically FOO mapping everything to that FOO concept is stupid but everything is a sexp ! no, everything has a sexp _representation_ here's the problem the storage technologies and the processing technologies are serial no matter how parallel we try to make them and every time we add a parallel layer we need to add a serial layer (cause and effect you've heard of it not?) to hook it to the real world don't confuse the _thing_ and its _representation_ meta-confusion is the root of OO evil. we you can only store a representation silly rares: there's not just _one_ representation rares: there are many. The system knows best which to use. 02:30pm rares: ever heard of distributed shared memories? Not very sequential. here's the problem sequential systems exist because the world we live in is a world of cause and effect I could equally say that the world we live in is intrinsically parallel sure and my shoes are scattered all around the room but they're only meaning full if they're paired or that there is no cause and effect, just history if we can't conbtrol then how can we possibly use it? or that sequential time is a local concept that relativity ensures cannot be globally shared rares: we can control things w/o their being sequential the arrow of time still flows forward and/or we need not control them down to such details that global sequencing be needed rares: the point is about local vs global, not about one-wayness independent things can happen in dependent things must happen in sequence insert parallel someplace there when you have two computers talking to each other, what "intrinsic sequencing" do you see among the memory constituted by their distributed system? of course it is you can't read distributed memory without mapping regions together which make sense rubbish. take a byte in the first computer and another in the other, which is intrinsically at lowest address? that's not the point memory isn't intrinsically sequentially addressed. tyou still need the next important meaningful byte no, it could be decimal stuff instead of bytes or it could use basis three, or 2^20 addressing could be not flat (a URL is a non-fixed-size address for data that isn't fixed-size either) next you'll telme the fact that high energy physoicists keep inventing more particles to satisfy their odd ball theories like Greeks inventing Gods doesn't seem odd there has existed decimal computers (ENIAC, for instance). And there exists 20-bit computers (F21, for instance) there needs to be a consistent system otherwise yiou only get special purpose machines 02:40pm no. there needs be a consistent way to interchange data the way data is actually stored doesn't matter surely, data sent over the network, or saved on a tape, must be marshalled into a stream no one denies it it does if you want one machine capable of handling all of it without needing to buy a decimal drive for some stuff and a binary drive for other stuff and boy the cycles wasted on conversion that doesn't mean the internal format during normal operations be anything remotely similar you don't expect RMI-marshalled streams to be the internal format of Java implementations. well let me put it to you asnotherway would you rather have a video memory grab to be your internal wordprocessor format nmaking it impossible to change video memory grab would be inefficient and video-size dependent the problem is most peoplright oops meant right but having the wordprocessor format be internally lists of objects in a persistent store seems right to me btw, the (what's its name? cedar?) system at Xerox did exactly that and framemaker (or what's that LISP-based word processor, already?) does that, too and framemaker saves to alien technology filesystems? or to files exactly. the filesystem is an alien system with which to interchange using byte streams. it's not the native format rares: read J. Liedtke's article on 15 years of experience with Eumel maybe you'll get a clue may be here's my point any squeak expert around? it seems to me that squeak images store source internally as structures, not text, don't they? 02:50pm although of course you can "export" the source as files on the filesystem, if you like -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp89.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes i like files, collections of files, and collections of collections of files, because I don't need a proprietary patent license to access them file and collections of file make everything trivial in terms of concept you can argue all you want about triviality in volume but in concept it's directly accessibile I'm a designer, a coder, and a user and I sdon't need some CEO from some company telling m telling me they've invented something I can't build from building blocks rares: who talks about proprietary patents? I'm talking about free software that's not what I mean rares: indeed proprietary software has been a TREMENDOUS brake to technological progress. I've argued that in my article mpfas http://fare.tunes.org/articles/ll99/ * eihrul/#tunes is sick of moronic valentine's day of fools advertisements... why are you looking at them i'm not... but they pollute the radio you try to listen to some metallica... and they're selling roses! hmm tunes mlist has produced a book about combinators smkl: anything wrong with that? nope maybe iepos should sort it out and make a real e-book Fare: you're aware that'd it'd probably take as long as Tunes itself has taken to do that? :) this is funny rares: btw, the Windows NT filesystem layout is proprietary. here I am arguing general purpose and he's arguing against and his paper agues for general purpose against me eben 03:00pm even even uh? okay here's my view on all this (nice paper btw): which paper? which paper is that? abi: shut up, you bitch! mpfas oh, thanks did you just read it??? hey be nice to abi no the whole but I get it see what you're going for has one problem until you design a machine that can boot off a meta object (which is possible) you'll always have a dirty system dirty as in the way Windows runs on top of DOS the system will *always* be dirty. It's just a matter of being less and less dirty. Much less than current systems. 03:10pm actaully for the sake of cleaning up the monstrous redundancies in 3-D programming I have half a mind to create phase space RAM -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250032.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey gusy phase space RAM ? Finite State Machine RAM pyro! gusy is not here abi: gusy? rumour has it gusy is not here guys he mant pyro: what do you mant? heh.. what's up? nothing arguing about dead space and objects don't let me interrupt :) oh no the more the funnier Fare, anything that can deflate gcc's complexity is good for me since I'm meant to write a meta-GC, I'd rather be talking about space and dead objects pyro: retro doing things other than crashing yet? eihrul: the keyboard driver works now I need to get the interpreter running pyro: what was the catch? anything worth checking out of cvs for? it's not in cvs :) eih: retro3 is not on cvs :( doh retro3? retro3 is, like, not on cvs :( you're rewriting it again? 03:20pm yeah, in forth. had to be done. too much of retro2 was in asm, eh? * Fare/#Tunes objects retro not being on CVS 'objects to'? well.. NASM kinda sucks that too asm sucks in some ways yes, in others no right now the only thing I see holding us back is the general spectre of illiteracy Forth/asm is better it's a matter of deciding where you're going to force ppl to work rares: what kind of illiteracy do you have in mind? the fact that ppl generally don't like to learn new things rares: do you like to learn new things? pyro: CVS is a tool to share code. pyro: why not share it? like tunes could make writing a cross compiler extremely easy I love to learn new things why do you think I argue all day :) I don't know.. Fare: maybe I'll just upload my code to tunes.org and your nightly script can add it to cvs :) tyes scratch your left ear w/ your right hand Fare: yes, so why doesn't core use it? :) pyro: sure NickPerv is spamming me pyro: but what about *submitting* changes to you? pyro: and why not use cvs commit -m "no comment" as a way to upload? arrest this man.. he talks like a fridge.. he's like a detuned radio Fare: I don't have a permanent net connection... after a night of hacking I don't feel like logging on and uploading if I had a permanent connection you all could barge right in :) this is what you get that's how we do it at work (on the LAN, not the internet) Radiohead rox I have given all I can.. it's not enough 03:30pm rares: indeed.. think I have at least a dozen cds, singles and stuff pyro: it's not like you must update _every night_ pyro: you can hack a lot, and defer the cvs commit until much later commiting often is a Good Thing though pyro: alternatively, you could have a cron job connect you and disconnect automatically I've done that in the past just a matter of programming your /etc/ppp/ip-up* I turn my computer off when I'm done with it so there :) use anacron, then: it connects when it can :) ftp work fine so.. * Fare/#Tunes now has a permanently online server cvs works fine, too Fare, I have one quesstion how you suppose we might describe say a plane in all of its incarnations without needing several textbooks to be stored in memory metaprogramming can get seriously hairy and btw, rsync is more seamless than ftp rsync is ok ftp is the one thing I can count on rares: of course it will get hairy. But still simpler than doing things by hand it's not about being simple. It's about being _as simple as possible_, and no less. I hope th no ;less is included otherwise this discussion could very well become Tovalds vs Tannenbaum and you already know where I stand and the fate of both :) 03:40pm what happened to tannenbaum? Tanenbaum you mean I guess pyro: he is still a professor and still teaches OS courses, still uses Minix.. and Torvalds... still at transmeta? * eihrul/#tunes shudders. a tanenbaum OS course would conceivably be frightening if he holds grudges yes if his books are any indication... I think a lot of people criticises tanenbaum based on the mail-discussion.. and little else * eihrul/#tunes has read both of his OS books. and that's what i base my criticism on :) and compared to other OS books they aren't too bad i think they criticise him because of trhe success of Linux but then again who was he to think a student couldn't whip a teacher's arse unlike most professors he has actually implemented something Fufie: besides sharing 50% of their content... rares: umm.. tanenbaum never wanted to make Linux rares: tanenbaum wanted to and probably still wants to use Minix for teaching.. not making it the greatest OS in the world is it simple enough? Linux can not be used for teaching not necessarily clean enough, however... Minix almost makes Linux look clean... Minix is pretty simple and pretty well documented Minix however suffers a lot from being implemented on too small compuuters.. heh seen Downix you'd prolly be better to use Xinu for teaching OSes or Mach... if you really hate your students Mach isn't hehe Fiasco-L4 isn't half bad, either... Minix vs Linux flamefest summary: minix is teaching tool, while linux is a learning tool. (shameless self-quote) I think people should read tanenbaum's books I think ppl should code :) and respect that people are allowed to be wrong.. as tanenbaum was Fufie: or 1.5 of them... eihrul: maybe.. :) he wasn't necessarily anymore wrong than Linus is and was... both microkernels and monolithics are dead... :) 03:50pm well, not dead, but reaching the end of their usefulnesses... not about that.. about his views on copyights, the net, and such stuff copyrights oh, ok :) ideas do NOT deserve respect, especially wrong ideas. only people deserve respect. Fufie: what are his views? oh by I think I' pyro: check the mail-discussion or flamefest.. and see the foreword on the Minix 2nd edition book gah X needs to go on a fucking diet Fufie: so we should NOT respect that people be wrong; we shal l only respect the people that are wrong. fufmann: was the foreword posterior to the flamefest? pyro: he was very wrong about GPL and about the "bazaar" model fare: the foreword in the 2nd ed is after the flamefest and when linux was gaining in popularity.. around 96 I think fare: no, people are not wrong -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-132-228.s482.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes crap no Borders near me GPL vs. PD... I prefer bugroff to PD maybe I also prefer bugroff to GPL eh? * Fufie/#tunes prefers the world of Winnie the Pooh ah yes the Tao of Pooh the only difference between GPL and PD is, GPL binds people to keep derivative works open-source.. right? that and distribution itself GPL says: you should have the source the same way you can pop the hood on your car (source code must be available on readily available media if it's distributed in the public...) umm.. GPL predates open-source open-source isn't the same as liberated code linux sucks no, complete freedom predates them all. "free software," to be politically correct exactly I can pop the hood and change it Fare: but complete freedom is also the freedom to deny others freedom... ATG: yeah, but it still sucks less than most which is not necessarily an ideal freedom... complete freedom is but a platonic ideal (which is a lot, granted) eihrul: bullshit eh, not bullshit... eihrul you have the right to deny people freedom in the GPL you only have to give source to those to whom you give binaries * Fare/#Tunes is reading a Great book on freedom: Hayek's "Law, Legislation, and Liberty"