IRC log started Fri Feb 4 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0204 -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff ult: #TUNES (Ping timeout for ult[user-38lc66i.dialup.mindspring.com]) -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Read error to smoke[16dyn158.delft.casema.net]: EOF from client) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn158.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@207-172-184-236.s236.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- mike|read [dyn4mik3@s97-186.resnet.ucla.edu] has joined #tunes -:- mike|read [dyn4mik3@s97-186.resnet.ucla.edu] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff Plundis: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- Plundis [plundis@130.238.23.252] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1034.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1033.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-240-97.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-133-139.s139.tnt3.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Ghyll[mp-217-240-97.daxnet.no]) -:- thomas_ [thomas@193.217.63.152] has joined #tunes -:- rares [rares@wtrb-sh1-port28.snet.net] has joined #tunes hei hey what's up, rares? 10:20am I'm in SuSE it kicks serious ass what's that? SuSE linux ok, like mandrake I used redhat + mandrake for a whilke bu this takes the cake what are the differences? Mandrake is solid SuSE is more oriented toward lots and lots and lots of software many emulators pprogramming tools nice you have to be careful with the install comes on 6 CDs or 1 Full DVD wow! funny thing though it's the only Linux distro you can continue installing if your machine screws up If you program keep Mandrake for Internet and use SuSE as a workstation have you tried debian, rares? Yeah I love debian as far as Documentation is concerned it is probably the dist most geared towards development and political correctness if development is the key thing I think debian might be the best choice I like deving I can't stand political correctness however Debian is probably the first group to port to Amiga if they saw a market there but debian is not really for linux newbies I guess I like what they're doing with Debian/BSD Fufie I wouldn't say it itsn't it just takes a little more work -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-86.ici.net] has joined #tunes 10:30am -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial607.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes hey Kauf ho why the hell am I not allowed into #osdev anymore?!? dunno it's an invite only channel and only abi is on it hrrrrm strange Kaufmann: fixed hcf, cool so my Karma is at 48 now heh 10:40am * Kaufmann/#tunes is a Karma whore and likes it anyone want to talk about UI? brb back hmmm something just occurred to me, dunno if it's actually interesting in IRC, saying "I'll be right back" means something entirely different, from an interactional perspective, than it does in RL Awesome!!! A Lego Machine Gun!!!! http://www2.shore.net/~karr/lego/shoot/machinegun.html 10:50am hm.. I don't get anything from that url there it worked 11:00am Fufie, got some mod points? anyone here know of a web page done in XML I could look at? downix: just internal stuff kaufie: let me check dammit * Downix/#tunes wants to see how XML looks a Web page done in XML? downix: two sec yes Kaufmann, I wanna see what they look like kaufie: no mod points Served with HTTP? 11:10am or what? somebody said or was fire == lar1 ? heh abi, or is not anything ...but or is fire == lar1 ?... no, or is not anything abi, or? i think or is fire == lar1 ? airgh fufie: i downloaded harlequin's lispworks just there. after only 1 minute of clicking it locked up X11 :( abi, no, or is not anything okay, Kaufmann. ROTFL fufie: it's not meant for use on a machine as little as mine, but it sure _looks_ powerful :) * Kaufmann/#tunes derives evil pleasure from bugs in other people's code :) smoke: it has a nice environment yes but you probably need a spiffy pentium and at least 64M RAM wow, XML... ooo (not terribly impressed, but it is nice) fufie: i have 64mb of ram, but the gui is very `sloppy' afk.. food porr abi hehe poor even 11:20am * Downix/#tunes ponders where can I find creative people? not on Slashdot, I'm sure :P I guess I'm creative hehe ok Kauf, come up with a brand-name identity for my company. hehe downix: what's it for? Hrrrrrrrrm. There's a new Scheme implementation, written in C smoke: Oh, my company can't come up with a name for itself to save it's life downix: what kind of company is it? Downix, I've already told you. "The Cthulhu Corporation". smoke: We're designing hardware Who wants to see pretty Perl code? Kaufmann: Taken, as I said downix: `Hardware Design, Inc.' $j=12;$i=0;print grep{$_->[$i++]}reverse(map{$o=[(' ')x13];$o->[$j--]=$_;$o}split('',q{desufnoc ma I})); smoke: uh, no LOL smoke Uh! I've got it! what? Use a burning window as your logo, and call yourselves "The Company Formerly Known As Microsoft" uh, no damn Downix: what r the attributes of ur hardware? Hack & Slash Hardware... we eat the competition for lunch hcf: inexpensive, comprehensive, and fast Downix: any unique attributes? downix: is there anything remarkable that makes your company differ from the competition? quite a few smoke: we're not a dot-com, we're designed for a 30+ year life expectency, we're focused on how to get the most out of the least amount of R&D work `getting the most out of the least' doesn't sound very cool hcf: the hardware is really a very extended, high-end CPU with most of the core system functions embedded, to allow for a massive cost reduction. 11:30am it doesn't? it sounds like making money from air could be me though would you rather spend $5 mil to get a product with a shelf life of 8 years or $30 mil to get something with a shelf life of a single year? Downix, you live in the PC era. When it comes to chips, inefficiency is kind :P Kaufmann: It is? Funny, PC sales are dropping downix: i like research. i dislike people making money off of it. so if you look at it VERY sarcastically i like your company Downix, thankfully. smoke: hehe downix: ..and i am exaggerating :) smoke: Basically I figured out how to extend a products shelf life. Similar to the P6 core from intel. Look at how long that this is lating downix: from a capitalistic point of view that's nice. from an R&D it's even better, gives the R&D boys time to perfect the next-gen rather than rush things out the door * Downix/#tunes points to the Intel math bug as a prime example -:- SignOff rares: #TUNES (KVirc 1.0.0 Millennium BETA 3) ah yes, the Intel math bug I see everyone else is coming up with a blank okie, lemme think downix: i really can't make a clear vision of your company yet 11:40am downix: choosing a good name depends on what the company's plan is downix: if there's no need to gather money, every name will do. hold on then Sensible Co.: We may not be cool, we may not be sexy, but we sure are practical if money is important, i'd go with something overly hyped and change the name in a year from now. I'd rather not okay, overly hyped names Atheon? Athescent? Visient? Lubridium? Metaeron? Natalie Portman Naked & Petrified Corp.? that's the business plan using the old name we had (which qwe have to drop due to the possible conflict with another firm in Maryland) * Downix/#tunes does not want to keep changing names on a whim kaufmann: lol note, that plan is old, but it does give you an idea what we're doing I've got it Fumegant Processing Iron-age technology at your fingertips Or even better... Locomotion... that way, in your ads, you can get Ricky Martin to sing... "Livin' la vida Loco-motion" Carole King also has a song called "Do the Locomotion" IIRC uh, no -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) ok all, going to idle a bit * Downix/#tunes is away: (getting lunch) [BX-MsgLog On] 11:50am well, I'm off as well. oops, gotta go .quit -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES (Downix has no reason) -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd/ as leaves fall on still waters/ she is here no more.) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-212-67.s575.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes smoke: do you have the beta edition or the crippled trial edition of harlequin? i think i have the crippled version ok lispworks-personal-4100 that's the crippled one but one other point where do i get the beta one? i should write personally? it's for educational purposes only, i don't like testing quasi-commercial software, so i won't sign a thing :) when I mentioned the wanted hardware for tunes, as I said tunes would include a compiler and apps, and it will include a integrated development environment, not quite like lispworks, but graphical and integrated into the editor.. aha quasi commercial? isn't lispworks all commercial and proprietary? now THAT's interesting smkl: some things are free for personal use smkl: there's even source code included with it then 128M ram and spiffy hardware is needed but the system should be easy to reflect upon and then you need a good environment fufie: i don't follow the step where you jump to the 128mb conclusion I have never thought of tunes to be a competitor of minix or simple-simple linux, but to be an integrated system 12:00pm i don't see why one can't have best of all worlds :) maybe 64M or 32M will do.. but you want graphics and want it to move and have room for user apps as well X on my computer takes at least 40M graphical applications can be implemented in zillions of ways. if you have a modular or pluggable setup it can scale well to very simple hardware in theory and with eminent programmers yes but the eminent programmers can't do everything in all places 99% of the cpu time on most modern machines is spent on the gui afaics well actually it's spent on idling :) the power is needed for the lousy scheduling of peaks in cpu usage it's idling 99% of the time and in the 1% that you actually scale an image you need 4 pentiums nowadays but a development environment is needed to be able to unleash the tunes yes are you a mouse lover btw? that is also some of the reason I waste time on sds :) sds? hmmm... sds is a framework for developing programming tools such as source level documenters, source browsers, source metric collectors, and similar. or at http://sds.yi.org/ I mostly use the keyboard.. though I am fond of the wheel on the mouse when reading text abi: sds is also what needs the 128 megs smkl: i haven't a clue abi: sds is also \what needs the 128 megs okay, smkl. sds runs nicely on my linux box with 16M i could summarize the review's Interfaces.html in one line stating "Don't use mouse" (if i would've written about the research that is) a mouse can be a great tool, but it should be used only with great care not for doing everything as in most Windows applications and Gimp note that i love using the mouse for drawing with smkl: :) 12:10pm the mouse is a good invention though it sure is, but it's overrated smoke: whats not overrated? the current trend in GUI's is really sad. you have to click on everything for which you could perfectly well use the keyboard, even without having to learn weird combinations by heart hcf: the use of a mouse in user interfaces hcf: ehm duh i misread hcf: :/ the #hurd channel on this server is gaining some interest by the way people like moving in herds we're pretty much like sheep except that most sheep tend to grow more wool especially the gate-symbol before the word hurd makes you wonder 12:20pm opn is becoming too big smkl: i could leave if you want me to? not you .. developers of the world unite rebel against the imperialist companies exploiting our labour :) * smoke/#tunes just did a /msg chanserv info #tunes was this one of the first channels? second? #debian, #linux and #redhat are older i was on here way b4 #tunes #linpeople must be the oldest probly #linpeople and #debian are indeed old u probly shouldnt go by info chanserv provides, theres no garantee that entries havnt been rewriten after a loss smkl: but you were serious on opn becoming too big? hcf: true yes ... it's growing very fast now (with irc.linux.com and all) why is it that irc channels r so much more noisier than mlists? hcf: because it's too easy to say stupid things (like this) smoke: isnt it easy to mail stupid things? 12:30pm hcf: and perhaps also because of the little >3 second lag in which you get to think of things the other end would probably understand him/herself but couldn't show, as is done with facial expressions in real life (like this) hcf: it's indeed easy to mail stupid things, i thought that's called usenet hcf: look at alt.linux.sux both #tunes and tunes@ r public and have small audiences yet off topicness doesnt happen much on the mlist if it does, the audience responds negatively that's why, probably. but noise is seemingly encouraged on irc well thought out negative response is hard to swallow it's hard for me to think out well how to say we're discussing something very offtopic what should a gui for tunes offer ? 12:40pm the standard widgets at least drag and drop beans aqua-theme what are beans anyway? beans? pluggable graphical components, ie editor, web browser, volume adjuster, etc and concerning actual functionality ? functionality? it's all about prettiness ;) hahah should every entity in the tunes system be made visible to the user? (eventually) is any of the gui usage essential to managing a tunes system? I think so, but I am sure paranoid people won't like that making entities visible should be easy with reflection I think gui is essential for a popular tunes system i find myself having trouble keeping things tidy in a gui oriented system as opposed to unix's file based structuring fufie: i think you should not be lead by opinions of the masses smkl: that's an interesting topic reflection should allow many different kind of interfaces easily is there some sort of `mirror'-element in any existing gui? I prefer a graphical environment for many things.. and command line for other stuff fufie: both should be integrated with one another are you all thinking of One Big Tunes Gui, or more along the lines of a plethora of gui-managers like the window managers in x11 ? (the One Big Tunes Gui being themable on end of course) 12:50pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-212-67.s575.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has left #tunes [] I mostly believe in getting a vm and a small core working so people can experiment and extend fufie: extend like a tree, or like a snake ? (if snakes extend at all) extend in whatever way it is extended if people want to fork off (ie making a tree) it's ok with me there will be no straight line I guess aha and what about a modular system in which all modules should adhere to a given protocol (or family of protocols) to make a big system? that will come around if people is happy with the proposed protocols is any start made for these protocols? s/people/the developers/ I don't think any protocols have been proposed it's pretty hard to come with a protocol when noone has any idea on how things will look any idea what should be thought of ? something like /dev/, /proc/ or hurd's translators, or base classes in the HLL ? -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us1033.javanet.com]) or perhaps even aspects (AOP) of which i haven't the slightest idea what they are :) orthogonal persistence is proposed I find that to be a good idea ouch. * smoke/#tunes checks the glossary 01:00pm afk 01:10pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp118.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes greetings eihrul greetings 01:20pm -:- KingNato [isildur@c212-151-1-33.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes -:- m-ov [pervert@212.116.150.203] has joined #tunes -:- KingNato [isildur@c212-151-1-33.swipnet.se] has left #tunes [] -:- Kaufmann [newbie@dial713.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes has anyone read Kris de Volder's Ph D thesis? no, what's it about? type systems as logic programming languages the prolog/java stuff it's pretty good, but it really annoys me to see how far she went to concoct a system for quoting Java programs in the Prolog-like language TyRuBa. of course, we all know that, if you even _think_ about metaprogramming, you should be using Lisp. Simply using Lisp as the target language would have cut at least 20% off the paper's cruft. 02:10pm I honestly can't help but think that simply using a purely-logical subset of Lisp as the logic language and a more full Lisp as the target language would have been a _much_ better approach. Then again, the thesis targets static type systems. A-HA!!!! My Karma hit 50!!!!!!!! * Kaufmann/#tunes opens a bottle of champagne, then remembers that he doesn't drink alcohol and curses. Lisp has a logical subset? kaufie: have read parts of it but for the people who is part of the static typed functional language religion, lisp is evil as it is dynamically typed and it's not easy to prove stuff in it :-) smkl, you can come up with one, anyway. Norvig actually implements almost-full Prolog semantics (with easily-manipulatable (urgh) SEXP syntax) in _PoAIP_ Fufie, exactly so he should have first implemented prolog in lisp, and that would have helped? smkl, maybe, but that's not my point 02:20pm kaufie: but lispy thinking is also pretty close to a religion.. most people tend to find Lisp, assign it to their language-of-choice variable, maybe learn new languages but the value of language-of-choice remains the same but what's wrong with that, considering that Lisp is perfect? :) most people who find lisp simply puke and will never touch it again sure, because they never look past the parentheses... smkl: ok.. replace �find' with 'understand' then -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by asimov.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: No route to host -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Interrupted system call 02:30pm -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: No route to host -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- Unable to connect to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net: Interrupted system call -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Servers exhausted. Restarting. [2] -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Servers exhausted. Restarting. [3] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from varley.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is varley.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from varley.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from varley.openprojects.net) -:- varley.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(30)] 4% -:- [global users on irc(310)] 43% -:- [invisible users on irc(415)] 57% -:- [ircops on irc(11)] 2% -:- [total users on irc(725)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(29)] (avg. 25 users per server) -:- [total channels created(212)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !varley.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 58 (53 clients) !varley.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14) tr. -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: TUNES, A Free Reflective System -:- topic set by lar1 [Thu Feb 3 13:39:25 2000] -:- [Users(#tunes:10)] [ TUNES ] [ Kaufmann ] [ eihrul ] [ thomas_ ] [ Plundis ] [ smoke ] [ abi ] [ Fufie ] [ Fare ] [ smkl ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.646 secs!! -:- Mode change [-ws] for user TUNES -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.18] has joined #tunes Kaufmann: fanatic cult? eihrul, more like it :) we even have our own secret word symbol, you mean suit yourself 02:40pm how dare you blaspheme with this 'word' of yours hmm, satanist cult? shut up, mibin :) no, lisp anyone seen _The Big Lebowski_? yes yes aol one of the best american movies i've seen not really shawshank redemption was also a good american movie `the best' is a set of size 500 btw and indiana jones I, II, and III :) have you sorted the set? Sorting sets implies defining a 'greater-than' relationship it's probably not even a partially ordered set 02:50pm not to mention that there are all sorts of nuances to the graduation that are inevitably flattened out when you shove them into anything resembling mathematical ordering relationship... thanks to the bizarre way in which the wetware substrate functions, A > B AND B > C may not imply A > C. brb back -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250038.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 03:00pm hm what's up? not much I suppose we were discussing the merits of modeling watched movies as a set with a defined ordering relationship. oh a total order should be possible sounds thrilling very much so. it hasn't happened yet, but we're very excited. putting Utz, a movie about a hungarian duke who collects porcelain and is about his last years and his fear of handing his collection over to the commies, at the top a great movie Utz? *ahem* Utz? yes have you seen it? -:- bineng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes can't say I have. I just like repeating that word. Utz. Utz. It gives me perverse pleasure. Utz. http://us.imdb.com/Title?0105712 he was a baron.. not a duke we need to fire a fuzzy set topology at this problem 03:10pm fuffy set topology will work though yep still, the criteria are too abstract. haha.. my OS is a 5-second download pyro, is it also a 5-second rm -r? :) maybe 5 ms better 5 ms than 1 MS-* heh does anyone have any thoughts on how to implement a pattern-matching-based object database in Lisp? you mean object-relational? 03:20pm no I mean an object database anything-relational is evil :) hehe if you said yes I'd say WHY? BRB... gonna go watch _Elizabeth_ later. is it any good, by the way? pattern-matching object db? how would that work? later later -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (kathyanne gets kick'd/ as leaves fall on still waters/ she is here no more.) fuzzy matching? 03:30pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-128-87.s87.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- lar1 [larman@dialup-209.245.129.200.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey ok, guys, im gonna make that lego gun at /., later -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.18] has left #tunes [] hehe the lego gun? haha does it involve rubber bands? yeah, that's cheating 04:00pm Heh heh, one time I made a remote-controlled pencil shooter :) damn near killed my sister with it cool (no it didn't hit her and I wasn't aiming for her) I've done some experimentation too, but I never killed anybody.. just fuckin scared her :) lego can be very dangerous in wrong hands especially those motorized ones