IRC log started Fri Jan 14 00:00:01 2000 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0114 -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us233.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- binEng [0@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- as06142 [as06142@cygnus.salleURL.edu] has joined #tunes ls hola heo andestoy que tengo que hacer join #openproje -:- as06142 [as06142@cygnus.salleURL.edu] has left #tunes [] 02:40am -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us733.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- Ghyll [karltk@mp-217-230-55.daxnet.no] has joined #tunes Ghyll: hi too many norwegians around Fare: I won't comment on our quest for total world domination... 07:50am yeah, .no is competing very well with .aol.com smkl: just wait 'till we merge with Via.. smkl: I mean Virgin. 08:00am -:- SignOff Ghyll: #TUNES (bar) -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) /c 08:40am -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes hi binEng hello! sup? 08:50am reinstalled Windows.. :P have u seen the slate post(s) and/or read the page? briefly, yes -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System || slate interested? -:- smkl_ [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes it sounds interesting, but there's not too much info and what's there is hard to digest IMO water could use any help he could get are you helping? the best i can ok. What is there to do in the immediate future? -:- smkl_ is now known as smkl i'm not sure of the current issues in question talk to water and/or eihrul So eihrul is involved? he's coding the common lisp prototype 09:00am water posted to the self, beta, lisp, and squeak discussion groups (and tunes) so far / last i heard, he's gotten 8 positive responses, mostly from the big guys (david ungar, alan kay, jecel, randall smith) cool but does he have anything concrete? I haven't really looked too much on it ideas and a little code I'll have a 2nd look respond to his tunes post any further news on ur vmthing since the last time i bugged u? not really. Don't expect anything big. 09:10am -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-130-191.s572.tnt2.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes greetings om 11:20am -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us733.javanet.com]) Fare ? i heard Fare was sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) or pronounced Fahree gf ? no, it's not the "faqs" assisting-engine... Fare: our conversation yesterday, where I was using the nick 'tmp', had unfortunately had an end due to our campus-LAN being powered off 11:30am -:- dalvarez_ [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff dalvarez_: #TUNES (hmpfkrt) -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from asimov.openprojects.net [12:00pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp07.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hey, eihrul lo new to #tunes? yeh waiting for fare talked to him yesterday but the conversation unfortunately had it's end due to my campus-LAN being powered off ah, you're tmp you got it thought it'd be nice to contribute to your project isn't my project so much i'm not an official Tunes member like me... not yet though i don't see what good it does to become one as opposed to just a groupie :) same thing either way is it possible to 'groupies' to contribute code? -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp07.lvdi.net]) 12:30pm -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp24.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes well, afaik, there's no real tunes code base at the moment there hasn't been much of one for years there's only lots of individual tunes related projects by various members yes but I read about the coordinating root project, what's about that ? * eihrul/#tunes shrugs. 12:40pm -:- dalvarez [ircusr@212.68.72.98] has left #tunes [] -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- water [water@tnt-9-185.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes 'lo hi -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-185.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water [water@tnt-9-185.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes bows. hey i was going to post many slate details the other night, but fell asleep while writing water: I heard you'd got some response to Slate. How's it going? and i worked 24 hours yesterday:( :/ water: my latest embarassing piece of code :) thx eih * binEng/#tunes has vacation water: things are now specified by both slots and a constructor and clone both parts bin: got 5 responses from the big guys, and about the same number from others eih: hmm water: so you can clone a thing by just calling a thing which is a lot like making a function closure eihrul: A "thing"? a pattern ala beta wow. quite a lot of code now well, we're trying to make them like petterns well, i went for a more complex scheme hopefully more general, though (i use lambdas to represent a given slot now) eih: that'll work for now well, its unimportant how slots work :) that was just the easiest way to make everything work properly at the time got a "hello world" now? :) i don't have a hello world but it prints the dot-product and magnitude it's ok of some-point, cloned-point, and some-colored-point yes i see interesting demo water: How is Slate related to Arrows? bin: it's a stepping stone i'm worrking thorugh some issues related to co-induction and co-recursion that help with immutable objects and this should make reflection more interesting and useful Does Slate use immutable objects? Exclusively? not exclusively i'm designing the language to support a very wide variety of mop's, so object semantics can be shifted as necessary 01:20pm mop? it has been said that mop is Meta-Object Protocol i want the language itself to be very miimal like self, so that there is more room in the environment for optimization and customization water: what is a "homo-iconic fine-structure intensional information-processing system"? now what is a meta-object? Fufie: homo-iconic is unified a meta-object defines the semantics of an object water: And syntax? fufie: want a breakdown of each term? bin: syntax should be lisp-based and therefore just as versatile water: no.. I am interested in the product.. ie the meaning of the terms put together ah fufie: sort of a database that can interconnect domains dynamically ok.. my biggest problem was the 'intensional' part it can be scaringly wide well, the intensional part has to do with being able to ignore denotations when they don't help er... i didn't explain that well at all i found just recently a good formal idea of it related to co-induction it might me my head being sortof screwed up but the intro to the arrow-system seem to use more complex words than might be necessary heh. i'd have to disagree :) s/my/and my/ coinduction is good for lazy data structures not just for that, though my focus is on streams of information that way you can factor out the necessity for an algorithm to generate the structures in question stream is a coinductive list? hm i suppose so i'm still trying to sort out all of the implications of the idea do you know Charity ? Charity is a programming language based on caterory theory at http://gopher.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/Redirect/charity/home.html i looked at it briefly once that url is broken smkl: can you fix it? hrrm 01:30pm well, i *am* familiar with ct, but very much not satisfied with it it's just new clothes for the emperor lambda i'm looking for something else abi: charity is a programming language based on caterory theory at http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/projects/charity/home.html ...but charity is a programming language based on caterory theory at http://gopher.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/Redirect/charity/home.html... abi: no, charity is a programming language based on caterory theory at http://www.cpsc.ucalgary.ca/projects/charity/home.html okay, smkl. thx charity has nice inductive and coinductive datatypes so? as long as the lambda is good looking, nobody cares for his or her clothes fufie: obviously not, or otherwise every functional-language programmer would use the same language it has some nice ideas, even though they are not original i'm downloading the specs and papers on it, just to see for myself co-induction ain't just a principle for programming, btw especially it's not just for lambdas, since they are inductive (constructive) types 01:40pm cool. about 10 more slate responses now from which list? beta, i think just don't let the buzz overtake the implementation :) 01:50pm hmm... the clisp lists are up again :-) uh oh i forgot to check for replies on comp.lang.lisp oh great... the only reply there was to ask if tunes endorses slate :) perhaps the number of replies to slate on a given list L is a function of the merit of the individual language L? :) lol nah inversly proportional, of course Gakuk s/inversly/inversely hey fare Shouldn't the glossary have some index to the entries? yes it should well, it would have to be generated automatically yup but no one's put in the time for such a system :) :P om hmmzers... if toonze is going to be a VM OS then we will need someone to write the code to handle all the x86 crap and create a single VM for programs to execute in. =\ it doesn't have to be based on a vm i mean, not a bytecode interpreter per se If you can specify the VM characotoristics you want I'll write your kernel... or compiler 02:00pm I mean when you compile stuff for the VM, to run natively, you will still want a single address space I suppose, the x86 processor requires that you write a kernel to handle it... like writing a pascal compiler given a description of the pascal vm oh. sure i don't care about that i mean, you can do with it what you want So what I would make is a kernel that will abstract the hardware so you can implement your kompiler on it... eh, why not just cross-bootstrap from another system? :P rather than going through the trouble of writing your own kernel atg: ok, but i'm pretty involved with semantics to help you with your design brb no problem. It has been many years since the TUNES project has been founded and I would like to see something bootable. =\ there's plenty of bootable things novel Novel rather... 02:10pm om anyone listening? * binEng/#tunes is here at least om I was thinking abou NOSes... or Network Operating Systems such as what NT hopes to be and what Novel is. =) oh well... =\ I want to make sure Sphere can be enhanced with any charactoristic you would want from those OSes. =) uh om? what 'uh' ? =\ Networking shouldn't be needed as an explicit focus of an OS.. IMO "uh" expresses ambivalence and general confusion :) or just a verbal crutch I agree... and a very versatile work too ;) s/work/word/ Sphere's core will be 100% devoid of networking save for the most fundamental hardware interfaces. bah sphere wasn't supposed to be an os AlonzoTG: Are you interested in Sphere? you've twisted the intent of the design entirely well i took over the Sphere project and I'm going to turn it into what I want. >; ) gaah bin: exactly We are talking about the Sphere of Jim Little? either that or I'm going to be back in the market for a gnu name... no, my spher... AlonzoTG: The name's taken yeah, atg, jdl's sphere idea is much more novel water: Where does the 'd' in 'jdl' come from? it's his middle initial he uses 'jdl' as his nick ah =\ 02:20pm om oh well... well, i will be back in a few hours i'll be working on the slate stuff for a while cya -:- water [water@tnt-9-185.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 02:30pm -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us101.javanet.com] has joined #tunes if u guys were looking for a hard to find motherboard where would u look? 03:20pm hmm.. I wouldn't... u wouldnt look for a motherboard or u would give up easily? I see no reason why I would look for one in the first place :) well if u were upgrading and needed a specific mobo I'm looking at either ALPHA or MIPS.... =\ dunno wut OS i'm gonna put on it though... I guess the sad truth is that I don't know much about mother boards. I guess I'd ask in some shop. hmm... I'm on my 4th motherboard.... well i emailed asus but i doubt they will sell me one direct from taiwan, plus shipping would probably be expensive my 386 and 486 motheboards are still installed and the 486 (1992) is running 'doze 98... 03:30pm air: Is it that important then? i have 5 pentium II class systems, 6 pentium class, and 3 486 binEng: the board is very important Get a G00D board... AlonzoTG: i dont buy crap I spent only $90 on my current and am regretting it... =\ hahaha it only supports 16 mb DIMMS... my asus boards range from $150 to $300 I got it in 1996 03:40pm -:- water [water@tnt-10-242.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hey all hey hi, wb any suggestions for the slate web doc format? water: Hope your work was fruitful html? i was looking for a language with html online docs that had a nice open tunes.org-style flavor most of them just put up .ps-docs I don't quite see what you're looking for hm n/m i could really use a starting point for the docs, though. design goals first darn it, "slate manifesto" just sounds wrong lol You've got a problem there, mate 03:50pm web-based lang-development doesn't have much of a precedent what do u need to write besides code and a spec? water: python? i heard python was a oopl at http://www.python.org some sort of guideline for the spec water: they have nice html-pages fufie: thanks i mean, the actual spec itself could simply be the common lisp program that interprets the language it's not like some ordinary language where i have a set of keywords and types defning the spec to be an implementation has worked in the past but is imho not ideal separating the two is a Good Thing in many ways i know, i was merely illustrating that a spec isn't often enough i need to explain slate philosophy in detail main points: patterns as functions and objects a spec with no implementation is a mere gedanken project and doesn't grant the author many karma points from my direction fufie: sure anyway an object is just a function with a state :-) no hell, you guys are never any help -:- water [water@tnt-10-242.tscnet.net] has left #tunes [] 04:00pm heh -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Goodnight ) 04:10pm -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [04:13pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- water [water@tnt-10-242.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes damn, rdram is 800mhz -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- water [water@tnt-9-205.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes now that's a fact to bring a grin to anyone's face. =) =and it only costs about 6 times more than sdram 05:10pm eihrul, hcf: here? fufie, too? darn -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving) 05:20pm -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us101.javanet.com]) -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason) * Fare/#Tunes points to the thread that begins at http://lists.tunes.org/list/cybernethics/0001/msg00002.html -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250067.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey y'all -:- lar1 [larman@sdn-ar-015casfrMP219.dialsprint.net] has joined #tunes Hey what's up? I just got here I work 13 hours today.. god damn :) what jawb? wrapping up a project I can now say with conviction that GUI's are bad Why? heh, i worked 5 hours :) I didn't work at all and i went to work at 2pm yesterday and worked for 3 hours :) you spend so much time tweaking GUI stuff, and that detracts from the reliability, maintainability, and usability air: What the hell do you do? lar1: not much :) air: heh -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us307.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (Disconnecting) om hmm... I wish I was at that stage with my OS. =P anyway. I just need a GNU printer to get back in the acktion. pyro: if u were looking for a mobo and couldnt find anyone that carried it, where would u look? -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250165.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes pyro: if u were looking for a mobo and couldnt find anyone that carried it, where would u look? air: pricewatch? air: ebay? AlonzoTG: u dont need a damn printer to make an OS lar1: nope and nope as I was saying.. you spend so much time tweaking GUI stuff, and that detracts from the reliability, maintainability, and usability (is it possible, with dynamic IP, to request the last address you had?) -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (Read error to pyro[cci-209150250165.clarityconnect.net]: EOF from client) sure I do, how do I print out shit to review it with pen and stuff... You can't really draw arrows and shit in a fucking editor... 07:00pm pyr: no ATG: You don't need to -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250151.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes (is it possible, with dynamic IP, to request the last address you had?) AlonzoTG: yer a moron ATG: unless you suck... oh wait, i think he has to print it out and take it across the street to that kid in the wheelchair and have him read it for him :) Heh look, I am stupid, I need as many visual aids I can draw! christ, I can't get a decent connection hmm, seems ok now 07:10pm -:- lar2 [larman@sdn-ar-012casfrMP179.dialsprint.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[sdn-ar-015casfrMP219.dialsprint.net]) -:- lar2 is now known as lar1 -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) -:- ult [noone@user-38lc6e5.dialup.mindspring.com] has joined #Tunes bleh -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Ping timeout for lar1[sdn-ar-012casfrMP179.dialsprint.net]) 07:30pm wh0a ult: i need to find a place that carries the asus p3v4x mobo. know of any places that might have it? * ult/#Tunes ponders Nope. * ult/#Tunes buys his hardware at local shows. hmm i need this damn board but no one carries it * ult/#Tunes nods "The P3V4X won't be available for 60-90 days"--alt.comp.periphs.mainboard.asus 2000/01/14 WHAT!?!?! Heh. That might be why =) hcf: have i told u how much i hate u lately? :) air you are -so- vicious. no, but thank you 07:40pm being hard to find atleast gave me hope of having it in 2 weeks -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us307.javanet.com]) -:- NetSplit: bear.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [07:45pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [bear.openprojects.net] Aggggggg wtf what 07:50pm -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us307.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- fire [no@209-68-229-38.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes abi: seen core? core was last seen on IRC 7 days, 20 hours, 51 minutes and 47 seconds ago, saying: see you! [Thu Jan 6 23:09:13 2000] * ult/#Tunes ponders hi -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Netjoined: bear.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- Fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes 08:10pm oh great q3 just crashed and now my gamma settings are screwed up 08:20pm ult: do u know howto show fps in q3? heh nope. -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250051.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 08:30pm -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pyro[cci-209150250051.clarityconnect.net]) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250065.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pyro[cci-209150250065.clarityconnect.net]) -:- ptl [patola@200.251.186.138] has joined #tunes hi hi what kind of tunes do you have?? mid? I don't think it is mp3, because the motd say it's illegal (it isn't in my country) -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System || slate huh? reflective computing system? what is it? "Nobody's Fault But Mine" by Led Zeppelin was concieved in a moment of holy rapture. I am sure of it! =P this homepage looks boring ok, thanks, bye -:- ptl [patola@200.251.186.138] has left #tunes [] 09:20pm hah lame. =) 09:30pm -:- water [water@tnt-10-102.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes 'lo hel' sup? slate and some stuff for mobius later on omlie omlie omlie omlie omma check the stuff i have online now