IRC log started Wed Jan 12 00:00:01 2000
<water> for tunes, who knows
<hcf> for tunes, who cares
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[msg(TUNES)] permlog 2000.0112
<Downix> For tunes, SOMETHING!
* water_/#tunes checks logs
<Downix> Ok, how many times in the logs have I said ok or hmm?
* water_/#tunes doesn't care
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-29.tscnet.net])
-:- water_ is now known as water
<water> hmmm... so the tunes post would just be fyi, then?
<hcf> sure
<water> seems odd since tunes.org hosts the page
<water> of course i could probably get my own domain if necessary
<water> uhh
<water> www.slate.org ain't the usual site
<water> i wonder if i could persuade them to move to slatefamily.org?
<water> ok slate.com -> M$N
<water> darn, slate.net doesn't look up for grabs either
* eihrul/#tunes ponders why someone leaves family pictures up such a domain.
<hcf> enuf domain'ing
<water> yeah ok
<Downix> hehe
<water> :(
12:10am
<Downix> a family domain called slate?
<Downix> uh, ok
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<Downix> this site sucks
12:20am
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* water/#tunes continues to write e-mails
<Downix> ok
<water> ok, beta's out
12:40am
<Downix> why?
<water> the announce to the beta mlist
<Downix> OIC
<water> heh
<Downix> I thought you ment that beta was out as an option
<water> oh
<Downix> So it did sound weird
12:50am
<water> a similar one just went to the self list
<Downix> ok
<water> (you don't have to say ok)
<Downix> ok
<Downix> 8)
<hcf> posting to any lisp things?
<water> hm
<water> i really should
<Downix> Yes you should
<water> i guess comp.lang.lisp
* Downix/#tunes is liking LISP
<water> slate will have a lot of features from lisp
<water> s/features/capabilities
<Downix> Alright
<Downix> Slate == arrow?
<water> not quite
<Downix> ok
<water> but i think it'd be very good for implementing arrow
<Downix> ok
<water> since i'd have lisp power in a smalltalk-like system
<water> with good reflection
<Downix> ok
<Downix> good
<water> how about "slate: the purely functional object-oriented language"?
<water> hm purely functional can be a pretty strong claim
<hcf> semi-purely
<water> heh
<hcf> quasi-pseudo-semi-purely
<hcf> virginal
01:00am
* Downix/#tunes wakes up, "virgin, where?"
<abi> Downix: make me a women
<Downix> lol
<Downix> abi:  Abi?
<abi> i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' infoslut
<Downix> lol
<water> ok, lisp knows
<Downix> ok
<water> hm... time for squeakers
<hcf> http://guppy.eng.kagawa-u.ac.jp/~kagawa/publication/mthesis-abstract.html
<Downix> ok
<water> Dx: will you actually read that?
<hcf> hmm, that one isntt online, but some papers r at http://guppy.eng.kagawa-u.ac.jp/~kagawa/publication/
<water> yes i'm already looking there
<water> that's ok i know where to get monad papers
<Downix> Nope
<Downix> Right now I'm working on my businesses finances
<water> k, squeak is in the know on slate
<Downix> ok
<water> that leaves the ver-beloved tunes group :)
<water> s/ver/ever
<water> i doubt they'll be prepared for this :)
01:10am
<Downix> no way in hell they will be
<water> hehe
<water> i wonder what laurent martelli will think of it :)
<hcf> it'd be cool if many ppl see all 5 posts
<water> k, tunes has been slapped with the news
<Downix> hmm
<water> well, jecel will see 3, and fare might see 3
<Downix> Hehe, slap the gcc people, nah
<water> no i've caused enough damage for one night
<water> now i've got to turn vapour into hard code
<Downix> ok
<water> not a difficult task, but it will take time
<hcf> and ideas into specs/docs
<water> yes
<water> well, it's late
<water> i will work on this tomorrow, ideas and code and specs
<water> and answering hundreds of e-mails :)
<Downix> hehe
<water> i suddenly feel some serious regret
<water> but oh well
<Downix> we'll see
01:20am
<water> if i get really lucky, darpa will notice :)
<water> c'mon grant money :)
<water> sigh
<water> good night
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01:30am
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-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<Fufie> morning
02:10am
<Fufie> hmm.. water has gone comp.lang.lisp
02:20am
<Zhivago> I thougth he was all smalltalk :)
<Fufie> yes..
<Fufie> and he even says he has a partially complete prototype in Common Lisp
<Fufie> I am looking forward to seeing Slate at least
03:20am
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<water> ping?
<abi> pong!
<Fufie> water: you mentioned in your mail you had a prototype of Slate written in CL.. is that available for a look at what Slate does?
<water> it's available but it's only a few K
04:20am
<water> mostly just demonstrates a few concepts
<water> the interesting ones, that is
<water> i and eihrul worked on it for a few hours
<Fufie> because the mentioned site was kindof empty :(  it would be nice to have a spec or something to download and test
<water> abi self?
<abi> well, self is a prototype-based object system, at http://self.sunlabs.com/ or mirrored at http://www.cs.ucsb.edu/oocsb/self/
<water> 2nd url works, and this project won't stray too far from self
<Fufie> ok
<water> anyway, the docs are going to change after i get off of work
<water> it'll be a day to day thing... i'm dropping arrow until enough people are working on the fully-specified and emulated (in lisp) language
<water> this seems a far more practical goal at the moment
<water> anyway, if you fellows could write up explanations of how CLOS code could be applied to slate / self ideas, and perhaps write up some demo code, i'd appreciate it
<water> btw, i've mostly been discussing it on irc with hcf and eihrul
<water> over the last 3-4 days or so
<Fufie> have noticed
<Fufie> you might reach a wider tunes-audience by implementing in lisp I think
<water> i know, that's the idea at first
<Fufie> make something downloadable/readable and I'll have a look
<water> the squek thing is just an item of convenience for a portable, quick implementation
<Fufie> I have scheduled the Arrow-paper for reading tomorrow
<water> all right
<Fufie> I want to do squeak in lisp
04:30am
<water> i don't blame you
<water> squeak however will soon have access to great vm technology (via ian piumarta's work)
<Fufie> but squeak is smalltalk
<Fufie> smalltalk lacks some of the things I like about lisp
<water> i know
<water> that's what slate's for
<Fufie> (I made a long speech about what I liked for bill the other day, think you were here then)
<water> yep
<water> well, i'll get that spec going and posted over the next day ro two, most likely incrementally
<water> right now i gotta run
<water> bye
<Fufie> have fun
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04:40am
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<Fare> Thomas: hi
<thomas> hi
<thomas> what's up, doc
* thomas/#tunes is reading about refactoring
<Fare> not much
<Fare> what've you been doing lately?
<Fare> since you left uni?
<thomas> i'm working in a norwegian company
<Fare> narviknett?
<thomas> programming and designing with php3, sql and html
<thomas> no :) there are quite a few norwegian IT companies !
<Zhivago> ahh, people :)
* Fare/#Tunes tried to guess from IP number...
<thomas> it's 'netbiz'
<Fare> ugly name
<thomas> sure
<Zhivago> probably sounds cool in norwegian
<thomas> in norway, all computer-lingo is pronounced as english :|
05:50am
<Zhivago> oh well, you should have stuck in some slashes, and doobilackies over the letters
<Zhivago> then it would have sounded cool in english, because we wouldn't know how to pronounce it :)
<thomas> :)
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<Zhivago> thomas: you aren't the retro bloke are you?
<thomas> nope
<Zhivago> ahh, I probably mis-remembered the name :)
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<Fufie> evil capitalist company :)
<thomas> yepp, and I'm the evil programmer --- hahahahhahahahhaha
<thomas> hahaahahahahahahhaha
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<Fare> Zhivago: Tom Novelli lives in New-York, Thomas M. F. lives in Norway...
<Fare> Damn Scandinavians! Too many of them on the net!
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<Zhivago> fare: ahh
<Zhivago> fufie: hmm, what were the main things in lisp you liked (vs smalltalk)?
06:00am
<Fufie> that it is a programmable programming language 
<Zhivago> fufie: ok, so reflection
<thomas> ( smalltalk people think theirs's pretty programmable too - reflective )
<Zhivago> hmm, not to a primitive level though.
<Fufie> I found smalltalk more difficult to reprogram to make a completely new language
<Fare> Zhivago: LISP vs Smalltalk? Well, the macro system;
<Fare> the fact that you could taylor your object system to your needs, rather than use just a plain one
<Zhivago> fare: oh, I can think of a whole number of things, I was curious about fufie's motives though
<Fufie> zhivago: I made a long speech the other day :)
<Fare> "But you don't!" -- "I don't, because I can. Or rather, I don't, because I could."
<Zhivago> personally, I use lisp because it is an extremely simple self-redefinable machine.
<Zhivago> and it scales exceptionally well to both 'high level' and 'low level' programming
06:10am
<Zhivago> hmm, I'm a bit unimpressed with tcp/ip ii, looks like it was a waste of money :|
<Zhivago> I'm looking to implementing a tcp/ip stack in lisp
<thomas> is not 'factoring' and 'generalization' the same thing?
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<Fare> Zhivago: there's one in ML
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<Fare> there's one in FORTH, somewhere, too
<Fare> there is a proprietary one in LM-LISP, too
<Zhivago> fare: oh good, how low does the ML one go?
<Zhivago> I want to get down to the ethernet/etc device level, and take it up to tcp/ip etc
<Fare> Zhivago: all the way down to some low-level device driver abstraction. Uses SML functors a lot.
<Zhivago> fare: hmm, might have a look for it, although it's not looking too complex
<Zhivago> fare: bsd seems to be an insanely overcomplex system
06:20am
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<Fufie> zhiv: do you know of any decent lisp walkers?
<Ghyll> Fufie: I have some at-ats in my back yard...
<Fufie> :)
08:20am
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<Downix> om ATG
08:40am
<Fare> Fufmann: what about the one in Screamer?
<Fufie> it is one of the walkers I am evaluating to see which I will extend/use
08:50am
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<Fufie> thomas: do you still skate?
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09:40am
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<Fare> Fufmann: have you p-met TMF?
<Fufie> I am quite sure I have
<Fufie> it is a small town after all
<Fare> how that "you're quite sure"?
<Fare> You mean, you're sure that some of the guys you met was him, but don't know which?
<Fufie> I think he said he was quite sure he had not met me :)
<Fare> I'm sure you said you think he said he was quite sure he had not met you.
<Fufie> but I am not sure why he quit
<Fufie> but then again.. it is difficult to finish studies when tempting job offers are around
* Fare/#Tunes isn't tempted by writing HTML or Perl or SQL
10:00am
* Fufie/#tunes isn't either.. but ymmv
* Fufie/#tunes spent a year studying political science when he was bored with computer science.. and then I got a tempting thesis offer 
<Fufie> so i went back
<Fare> what's your thesis about?
* Fare/#Tunes is too lazy to read the logs
<Fufie> aop+hypermediasystem
<Fare> "hypermedia". Can mean anything.
<Fare> Darn, "Mystery House" was a hypermedia system.
10:10am
<Fare> "Books whose hero is YOU" (whatever the name is in english) are hypermedia systems
<Fufie> yes
<Fufie> but I will writen an article (in english) in february about it
<Fufie> s/writen/write/
<Fufie> irc is a poor medium to explain
<Fufie> afk
10:20am
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<Downix> hey-lo
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11:00am
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<Fufie> nice..
<Fufie> someone is solving the halting problem on the tunes-list :-)
11:40am
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<Downix> hey eihrul
<eihrul> lo
<hcf> hoy ppl
<Downix> What's up?
<Downix> hoy hcf
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12:30pm
<smkl> hmmph ... maude homepage is down, and cafeobj only seems to have tutorials in japanese ...
<Fufie> you don't know japanese?
<Fufie> try babelfish
<hcf> maybe tunes@ slashdotted the maude site ;)
<smkl> i don't think babelfish does any useful translations and the tutorial is in PS anyway
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<hcf> for some maude poop, http://www.csl.sri.com/~duran/
<Fare> poop?
12:40pm
<hcf> aka stuff
<Downix> hey
12:50pm
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<Downix> Who the hell gets this idea that off-the-shelf parts are faster than custom solutions?
01:50pm
<eihrul> i'd imagine the person who got the idea did
<Fufie> downix: they can very well be faster
<Downix> Fufie:  Depends on the application, doesn't it?
<Fufie> depends on a lot
<Downix> Very true
<Fufie> but custom software isn't always better or faster or meaner or nicer
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<Fufie> it's just custom
<Downix> very true
<Fufie> hi ghyll
<Ghyll> hi fu(f)ie 
<Ghyll> fu(f)ie/fuf(f)ie
<Fufie> ghyll: the jfront.ht file seems to have gotten new life as java-overview.ht  should jfront.ht be removed?
<Downix> Fufie:  But for hardware?
* Fufie/#tunes gives ghyll a bonk over the head.. :p
<Fufie> downix: same thing
<Ghyll> Fufie: yes. (ouch)
<Ghyll> Fufie: I clean forgot about it. 
<Fufie> ghyll: ok.. remove it when you can
<Fufie> downix: but it's as with haircuts.. I don't want a robot or a machine (which I stick my head into) cut my hair.. I want a custom job which takes the special care my huge dumbo-ears are
<Ghyll> Fufie: done
<Downix> Fufie:  *nods*
* washort/#tunes notices water's post to the squeak list
<Fufie> downix: but I want a qualified hairdresser to do the haircut.. 
<smkl> washort: what does it say?
<washort> smkl: talking about the Slate project...
<washort> something to do with Self and BETA, apparently.
<Fufie> slate I guess
<Downix> Fufie:  I'm right now sick of people saying that a generic card will always beat a custom job
* Downix/#tunes wonders why SGI's sell at all if that were the case
<Ghyll> Downix: their boxen have fancy colors
<Fufie> sometimes SGI sell because of mere superstition and because they have cool boxes
<Downix> VEry true
* Fufie/#tunes has seen SGIs get bought for ludicrous reasons
<Downix> then how about the AS/400?  Or Playstation?
02:00pm
<Fufie> umm.. people buying AS/400 tend to know what they do, I hope
<Fufie> playstation sucks though
<Ghyll> Downix: playstations have the software.
<Fufie> it doesn't even have a prompt
<Ghyll> Fufie: 'because SGIs have clearer colors'
<Fufie> ghyll: yes :)
<Downix> Or how about an UltraSPARC?
<Ghyll> Fufie: you can run linux or freebsd on the psx
<Fufie> an ultrasparc is ya pc/workstation
<Ghyll> Downix: because they want the best java-experience.
<Fufie> I find my computer comparable to a much more expensive ultrasparc
<washort> Java-experience? *snurk*
<Downix> There's an experience to Java?
<washort> besides pain, frustration, and torture? i doubt it.
<Downix> lol
<washort> i had someone try to explain java iterators to me today. 
<washort> blick.
<washort> ten lines of code to do what can be done in one line in Smalltalk. =)
<Downix> I just can't win today
* Fufie/#tunes comforts downix
<Fufie> Cheer up Downix, You know what they say
<Fufie> Some things in life are bad
<Fufie> They can really make you mad.
<Downix> I know the advantages of the custom work I'm doing
<Fufie>               Other things just make you swear and curse
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<Fufie> When you're chewing on life's gristle,
<Fufie>               Don't grumble, give a whistle!
<Fufie>               And this'll help things turn out for the best...
* Downix/#tunes recognizes the song
<Fufie> And...
* Downix/#tunes grabs his Monty Python CD
<Fufie>           always look on the bright side of life!
* washort/#tunes looks at Fufie and flees
<Fufie> :-D
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<Downix> We're the knights of the round table, we dance when we're able......
* Ghyll/#tunes is pleasantly surprised that some things never change.. :)
<Downix> yup
* Fufie/#tunes goes and finds a MP cd too
<Downix> Oh I'm a lumberjack and I'm ok......
02:10pm
<Fufie> I think that is more fitting for computer geeks and not lumberjacks
<Fufie> the cross-dressing part that is
<Downix> What do you mean
<Downix> hold on, got a run in my pantyhose
<Downix> 8)
* Fufie/#tunes is sure that all computer geeks have a personality of the other sex at irc
* Ghyll/#tunes thought there were only two.. 
<Downix> Actually, I think they just WANT sex at irc
<Fufie> and in techie groups you have to appear as male or you'll have to hear everyone's wet dreams
<Fufie> s/hear/hear about/
<Downix> lol
* Downix/#tunes is quite male, thank you
* Downix/#tunes adjusts his dress as he crosses his legs
<Fufie> what also sucks is typing at a keyboard with long nails
<Downix> Yes indeed
<Downix> I chipped a nail earlier
-:- Downix has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Reflective computing and cross dressing
* Fufie/#tunes finds it.. like.. sucky.. that like.. the tunes mailing list never discusses the feminine parts of computer science
<Ghyll> Fufie: you didn't quite manage to make the chewing gum noises.. 
<Downix> I know
<Fufie> :)
<Downix> We need to discuss the proper application of lipstick!
<Fufie> topics like "how to keep your nails good looking even when writing java code"
<Ghyll> downmix: permuted to lispstick.. 
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02:20pm
<Downix> Of course there's the "Making a GUI look "fluffy""
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<Fufie> and fuzzy logic
<Downix> yup
<Downix> Female logic of course
<Downix> "Honey, what do you mean you don't wash these windows?"
<Fufie> "Honey, have you taken out the trash can?"
<Downix> "Darling, why is my screen a funny blue color?"
<Fufie> but seriously.. you know that lisp is a feminine language compared to the macho language c?
<Downix> I noticed
<Downix> Let's make arrow totally prissy
<Downix> 8)
<Downix> commands like "whatever"  and "as if"
<Downix> 8)
<Fufie> "you know what I mean"
<Fufie> "do I look good?"
<Fufie> (which is a predicate which always returns true)
<Downix> of course, the "clueless" command
<Downix> like "as if "geek" is clueless, dump him
<Downix> 8)
02:30pm
<Fufie> if tunes is ever written we should use a day to reprogram it to be more friendly to girls
<Downix> yes
<Downix> We must have women
<Fufie> and the language used should be called lispstick
<Downix> lol!
<Downix> What about lispgloss?
<Downix> Or lispliner?
<Fufie> those would be apps I guess
<Fufie> lispgloss would be the powerpoint clone
<Fufie> lispliner would be the vector drawing program
<Downix> Sounds good
<Downix> 8)
02:40pm
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<Kaufmann`> Tsc. This is what happens when people start to add features to projects as an afterthought
<Downix> Yup
<Kaufmann`> It's obvious that the reflective capabilities of Tunes will be harmed by the newfound emphasis on cross-dressing
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<Downix> Awwe Kaufmann, you'll look so good in the feather boa and high heels
<Kaufmann`> heh
02:50pm
<Downix> What do you think of my new lingere'?
<Kaufmann`> just smashing, darling
<Downix> hehe
<Kaufmann`> ah well
<Downix> ok
* Downix/#tunes is trying to get info about the C= UNIX
<Kaufmann`> ?
<Downix> Commodore-brand UNIX
<Kaufmann`> dunno
03:00pm
<Downix> NetBSD talks about it a bit
<Downix> it's the first SVR4 implimentation
<Kaufmann`> anyhoo, is there a way to harness Joy's clean combinator semantics in a more familiar programming structure?
<Downix> no idea, probably
03:10pm
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<Fare> What makes Joy simple isn't its combinator structure as much as is pure semantics
<Fare> remove purity, you have complexity back
<Downix> hmmok
<Fare> although I approve of combinators as the Right Way (tm) to do pure stuff, since combinators are also meta-pure, unlike the lambda-calculus
<Fare> see unlambda
<Fare> abi: unlambda?
<abi> unlambda is a silly language based on call-by-value combinatory logic at http://www.eleves.ens.fr:8080/home/madore/programs/unlambda/
<Fare> note that unlambda is prefix rather than postfix
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<Fare> pyro!!!
<Downix> hey Pyro
03:30pm
<pyro> wtf?? I have 53 emails?
<Fufie> unlambda seemed nice
<pyro> hi ya all
<Fufie> church numerals for numbers.. nice
<Fare> pyro: wassup about retro?
<Fare> pyro: seen fcvm?
<pyro> fcvm?
<Fare> ouch. lost the pointer. Was on clf
<pyro> what is it?
<Fare> yet another forth-based OS
<pyro> forth ___ VM
<Fare> abi: fcvm is forth code virtual machine
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<Fare> abi: fcvm is also at http://www.icdc.com/~mghughes18/sources/
<abi> okay, Fare.
<pyro> thanks
<Fare> abi: fcvm is also at http://www.onelist.com/community/fcvm
<abi> okay, Fare.
<pyro> ok, it's a mac forth os?
* Fare/#Tunes just committed a klein-bottle order for his dad's birthday
<Fare> pyro: looks like so
<Fare> a good way to be portable is: support multiple architectures
<pyro> oh god, look at all those C files
03:40pm
<pyro> I just cut off all ties with C
<Fare> pyro: congratulations!
<pyro> Retro is compiling from within itself now.. it has its own assembler written in forth...
<pyro> still needs a few things before it'll run... 
<Fare> pyro: what about disk access?
<pyro> that's one of those things I just mentioned :)  But that's easy..
<pyro> But the keyboard and screen are more important
<pyro> I made sure the source will be easy to convert to 16x64 block format.. I'll just use raw blocks for awhile.
<Fare> 16x64 block? Horrors of the past!
<Fare> reminds me of the fire mailing-list talking about "a simple way to compress blocks". I suggested LF-delimited text lines...
03:50pm
<Fare> pyro: what about publishing your sources?
<pyro> not whenever I change anything, if that's what you're thinking
<Fare> pyro: instead of raw blocks, why not a "filesystem" like the original VSTa thing: just append stuff until you reach the end, then "garbage-collect"
<Fare> (or just dump the whole stuff from memory)
<Downix> hmm
<Fare> (atomicity achieved by keeping space for two copies, and a flag to say which is the latest)
<pyro> I'm using blocks for starters
<pyro> but what's this VSTa thing?
<Downix> hmm
<Fare> OSes.html#VSTa
<Fare> pyro: ain't "dumping everything" easier than blocks?
<pyro> about the same
<Fare> yup, but allows for more flexible consequential design
<Fare> (like "flashing" memory dumps to achieve persistence)
04:00pm
<pyro> the old VTSa fs.. how's that work? You just write modified blocks to the end, and reclaim the old ones later?
<Fare> IIRC, yes
<Fare> I don't remember how the reclaiming happened.
<Fare> how reliable it was, etc, etc.
<pyro> I think we're getting to the point where disks won't be necessary if you don't need tons of space
<pyro> ferroelectric RAM looks promising
<pyro> it's like ferrite core, but really small & fast
<pyro> (it's persistent, like ferrite core)
<pyro> and there's eeprom & flash
04:10pm
<Fare> I think disks will always be superior
<Fare> but indeed some kind of persistent RAM _might_ be "enough" for most uses
<zarq> cold chinese food isn't edible
<zarq> hiya
<Fare> but only with free software in mind, because proprietary software will bloat as disk size increases
<Fare> zarq: that's what microwave ovens are for
<Fare> so that persistent RAM will work only if people make hardware devices with free software in mind.
<zarq> fare; mine's broken
<pyro> if MS doesn't shape up my job will be to write small & solid commercial software..
<pyro> it's really pathetic
<pyro> speaking of MS Access, who's familiar with relational databases? Have you found any use for that concept in TUNES, etc?
04:20pm
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<pyro> fare?
<abi> fare is sometimes looking at another screen and interruptible with a beep (/msg Fare ^G) or at http://www.tunes.org/~fare/ or connected through a crappy ISP (cybercable.fr) or pronounced Fahree
<pyro> ok, i'll wait :)
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
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* Fare/#Tunes is back
<Fare> shape up?
<Downix> hmm
<Fare> what does "shape up" mean?
<Fare> relational db suck
<Fare> reldb is typical hype-oriented business
<pyro> yeah
<pyro> the ones I'm familiar with have some tables with over 64 bytes of key fields
<pyro> lots of duplication
<Fare> 64 *bytes* of key fields????
<pyro> yup
<Fare> they want to index the whole universe?
04:30pm
<pyro> umm.. 10,18,2,5,32, that's 67
<Fare> what are these figures?
<pyro> the number of bytes in each key
<pyro> actually, characters.. MS uses Unicode
<Downix> hmm
<pyro> and people wonder how come it's slow :)
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> How is unicode?
<Fare> lame lame lame
<Fare> it's part of the problem set, not of the solution set
<Downix> hmm
<pyro> well, MS makes you use unicode, but the only data ever entered will be ASCII
<pyro> 7-bit
<rares> Well in access you can't (sorry Downix I gotta repeat :!) you can't do a simmple call to get_custname(CustID)
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<Fare> UNICODE is a downright stupid attempt at not defining a structured document format
<Fare> understandable from proprietary software vendors
* Fare/#Tunes hate proprietary software
<rares> pro party softwqare
<Fare> pro party?
<pyro> yeah, allow you to mix every human language in one raw text file
<Fare> s/hate/hates/
<pyro> it's no use
<Fare> pyro: that's false.
<Fare> pyro: it doesn't even allow that
<air> yay, my dvd-rom got here today
<pyro> Fare: but that's it's purpose, even if it fails in that respect
<pyro> rares: what are you comparing access to?
<rares> php3 + postgres
* Fare/#Tunes proposes that every human-produced glyph ever be given a number by a free registration authority. The glyph obtained by printing my PhD thesis as a whole on one big strip of paper is to be given number 1.
<pyro> rares: you like?
<Fare> pyro: orthogonal persistence make rdb useless.
<Fare> pyro: even dBase II was faster than Access
<rares> i like scripting i can read the logic as well as the functionality
<rares> GUIs I have to trust Microsoft
<pyro> I hate how access hides stuff in its GUI's, making it hard to modify your software
<rares> I hate how it makes impossible to write software to begin with
<rares> pyro
<rares> dude can ya help mre?
* Fare/#Tunes doesn't know mre, and cannot help him (or her)
<pyro> hehe
<pyro> you need some Meals Ready to Eat?
<rares> no I need to get this access project done I need to get a Unix job and I need to get an apartment
<rares> 3 very important things
<pyro> hey you're almost in my position :)
<pyro> except my apartment is good
04:40pm
<rares> can you help me with acces though
<pyro> kids running around upstairs, a puppy too, but no parents bitching at each other :)
<rares> it's making me  crazy
<pyro> how many tables do you have? relationships?
<Fare> pyro: s/access hides/any proprietary windows product/
<rares> and to top it the xperts who are forcing me to use it can't get it done either
<pyro> hehe
<pyro> use code as much as possible
<pyro> avoid macros
<rares> I want to
<pyro> don't use "=SomeFunction()" in events
<rares> that's gay
<pyro> (there's an option under Forms/Reports to force you to use modules)
<Fare> rares: export the db to text, write perl scripts, and tell'em it uses access
<pyro> hehe
<rares> Fare I was ready to do that
<pyro> I almost did something like that for a report once
<pyro> instead I passed the buck :)
<rares> the thing is I'm going to college in the fall
<rares> there's no way I'm telecommuting
<pyro> fall is a long way off...
<rares> not when you have to sit in front of MS Access
<rares> then it's just hell
<pyro> you know, a guy I work with, with no prior computer experience, made a database with 104 interrelated tables
<rares> that sounds about right
<rares> only someone who never used a computer would use 104 interrelated tables
<pyro> no, that's a military standard
<pyro> a cancelled standard, by the way :)
<rares> you're kidding!
<rares> that's mastiurbation gezzus
<pyro> it is
<pyro> and the standard was released in 1991, and it had 6-digit dates!
<Fare> was it in COBOL?
<pyro> no, english.. quite readable, actually.
04:50pm
<pyro> give 'em some credit :)
<pyro> if it was implemented as non-relational, with unnecessary fields stripped out, it would be great.
05:00pm
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<Downix> I guess he was saying goodbye
<pyro> yeah, it's late in franc
05:20pm
<Fare> no, I was just spawning a new irc, to look for help at forging mail with exim (damn NSI domain registration)
<pyro> what's NSI?
<Fare> internic.net
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<lar1> Hey
<Downix> hey
<pyro> hey how ya been?
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<lar1> Lots of school related work... but otherwise fine
<pyro> I have a huge beast of a project due friday, if that's any consolation :)
05:30pm
<lar1> Well, I shouldn't complain too much, my other middle name is proctastinate
<lar1> s/proctastinate/procrastinate
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<lar1> Hey eihrul!
<eihrul> lo
<pyro> it's harder to procrastinate when ya get paid :)
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<eihrul> pyro: rmm, not if you get paid to procrastinate
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<rares> that sucked
<pyro> dinner?
<rares> no ISP is a wet noodle
<rares> silk would be nice but no
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<pyro> at the rate it's going I won't use the internet in a few years
<pyro> too slow, too commercial, too useless
<rares> you need the internet to replace the internet
<pyro> before the WWW it was nice
<rares> it's only because the wrong ppl are the helm
<rares> at even
<Downix> yep
05:40pm
<pyro> it's like TV or the phone
<pyro> why do I have a phone line? to get on the internet
<Fare> nobody forces you to switch on the wrong webpages/channels/etc
<rares> except ppl make websites not corps only
<rares> pyro give me a way to market muds and i'll do it
<pyro> but it's still a waste of time
<pyro> rares: hasn't that already been done?
<rares> mass market no
<rares> i mean on consoles
<rares> so parents can't hide from reality anymore
<Downix> nope
<rares> the day mud flamewars take over the console world the sooner content will improve
<Downix> lol
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<pyro> haha
<rares> LOL
05:50pm
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<eihrul> hrmm, is there any way to specify the element pairs of a hash-table in the make-hash-table constructor?
<rares> right now I only watch BBC reruns on PBS
<eihrul> Fare, Fufie: ?
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<Fare> eihrul: only the HyperSpec will tell
<Fare> not afaik, but you can find other hash-table implementations around
<eihrul> Fare: i'll just make a macro
06:00pm
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<pyro> well, it's time for dinner..
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<AlonzoTG> om
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<lar1> bbl
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<Pete_B> hi all
06:10pm
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<water> hi all
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water
07:00pm
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<water> fare: here?
<eihrul> water: rewriting the prototype to support cloning
<water> eihrul: shouldn't be too hard
* eihrul/#tunes nods.
<eihrul> i also changed it to work more cleanly though
<water> i am also trying to flesh out the design... there are a lot of semantics issues
<water> ok
<Zhivago> ei: you could use a macro to make-and-fill the table
<water> zhiv: are you looking at the code as well?
<eihrul> Zhivago: i know... but not worth it actually :)
<Zhivago> wateR: no :)
<water> k
<Zhivago> water: what is this code?
<water> eihrul has things.lisp that he is working on
07:10pm
<water> i have a copy from yesterday which is likely outdated
<water> i'm concentrating more on describing how the language syntax and semantics should work
<water> brb
<eihrul> water: yes, i started from scratch
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<water> back
<water> hey hcf :)
<hcf> hey water
<water> i got about 8 positive responses, mostly from the big guys
<hcf> big guys?
<water> david ungar, alan kay, jecel, randall smith
<hcf> cool
<water> a few asked for a mlist
<water> in the interest of not splintering too many things, perhaps a tunes list could be used
<hcf> right
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<water> maybe specs, considering slate as a proposed strategy
<water> hey fare
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<Fare> hey BTR
<water> heh
<water> like the initials?
<Fare> that makes "bitter", not "water"
<water> oh
<water> heh
07:20pm
<water> fare: what do you think of the ideas on slate posted so far?
<water> (there's a lot more that hasn't been written up yet)
<Fare> the general idea seems ok, but there are too many shadow areas for me to comment
<water> well, for practical purposes, just consider it a type of clos language with an mop system
<Fare> LISP syntax or not?
<water> lisp syntax for now
<water> it will definitely be based on cons cells
* Fare/#Tunes was thinking of Dylan
<water> which for me is simply graphical
<water> no, this will be very much like self
<water> well, that's not the right description
<Fare> hum. Advice: make the core a compiler, not an interpreter
<Fare> even a stupid compiler
<water> why?
<Fare> because mastering the code transformation chain is the key
<water> hum
<water> elaborate?
<Fare> an interpreter means you depend on an external language, its runtime, etc
<Zhivago> I'd have to agree
<Fare> the speed penalty is the least problem with it
<water> hm
<Zhivago> its easy to have a compiler generate an interpreter anyhow
-:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: TUNES, Free Reflective Computing System <http://www.tunes.org> || slate <http://www.tunes.org/~water/slate-home.html>
<water> so, bison and yacc, then?
<Fare> no
<Fare> bison and yacc suck
<water> i know
<water> what then?
<Fare> I mean, even the Squeak "interpreter" is actually C compiled from smalltalk
<water> right
<Fare> i.e. a (static) compiler with C being the target
<Fare> ideally, you'd have a dynamic compiler, and C is not such a good target for that (too high a grain)
07:30pm
<water> what if i targetted smalltalk objects?
<Fare> are you satisfied with the level of control granted by having the smalltalk runtime be a black box?
<water> hm
<water> well, the classes are nice and abstract
<water> this would allow me to bypass fiddling with integer math or floats
<water> and i can re-use collection classes fairly easily
<water> like hashing and dictionaries etc
<Fare> as for reusing code, if you language is semantically like an existing one, you can translate existing code
<water> well i'm not sure yet how much existing code would be of a useful style
<Fare> for bootstrap purpose, anyway
<water> although of course useful programming concepts would be reused
<water> yes, that's a good point
<water> hm. there's also the question of who i could get to help with the implementation once proven to support a satisfactory spec
07:40pm
<water> but that should wait i guess
<water> well, anyway, a lot of my thoughts today centered around the issues of immutable objects
<Fare> water: ian
<Fare> and i
<water> it's possible that not only streams, but also branching streams would be useful
<water> and a hyperset-style definition of a stream would offer a functional-programming generalized equivalent of BETA's "inner"
<water> in other words, an incomplete function call or function composition
<Fare> hyperset?
<water> a set containing itself
<Fare> my oh my
<water> it allows formalization of streams and recursion and induction over htem
<Fare> how are circular data structures gonna revolutionize anything?
<Fare> maybe the tool you want is coinduction
<water> e.g. Z=(A Z) formalizes streams of data type A
<water> sorry, misspoke
<water> co-recursion, co-induction
07:50pm
<Fare> note how coinduction is actually induction on the set of "observers", i.e. on the dual structure
<water> hm
<water> oh yes, i'd like to mention that within slate, i'd like to have all the system abstractions defined in terms of the language
* AlonzoTG/#tunes slaps water around a bit with a large trout.
<AlonzoTG> yer too formal.
<water> not a difficult point, but considering that multiple object interpretation systems will be useful, ...
<Fare> he used to not be enough formal
<water> yeah :P
<water> anyway, i'd like to have various ways of interpreting the sexp-structures that will be the objects in the system
<water> actually, just wait for me to post some specs
<water> i'll address simple issues there
08:00pm
<water> a thorny one i'd like to resolve is what to do with beta's virtual patterns
<Fare> iiuc, patterns are thunks with multiple "input" points (through dynamic binding)
<water> the issues of beta's modelling by various types of associations between patterns, like block-scoping, references, and pattern variables, seem to be resolvable fairly easily by adjusting mop policy
<water> hm
<water> there is the point that beta only deals with cooperative scheduling vice pre-emptive
<Fare> water: read my implement1 paper?
<water> yeah, but it's been a while
<water> i'll bet i grok it better now
<Fare> the point was: there is an intrinsic notion of safe point associated with any implementation of a high-level language with a lower-level language
<Fare> (and multiple so, if you have multiple simultaneous notions of implementation)
<water> i'll have to look through it again
08:10pm
<Fare> see also the LLL page
<water> k
<Fare> for hints on cooperative vs preemptive multiprogramming
<water> why is bespin so slow tonight?
<Fare> not "that" slow to me
<water> must be my connection
<water> the mirrors are slow as well
<water> brb
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
* Fare/#Tunes goto 3053
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08:20pm
<water> it takes a minute to get a response from bespin
<water> hm... well, the *pause* notion seems like it would be against the grain of the self design
<water> it could pass continuations perhaps
<water> but that makes no sense for an interactive object system
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<Rakko> hello
<water> hi rakko
<hcf> water: http://ptolemy.eecs.berkeley.edu/~johnr/code/slate/ http://www.cse.ogi.edu/%7Ejl/biblio-functional.html
08:30pm
<water> darn
<water> nice papers, though
<water> fare: looked at cecil?
<water> hcf: btanksley mentioned a functional oo language with immutable object states using streams, but didn't remember the name
<water> hcf: could you find it, pretty please? :)
<hcf> i know, i was gonna ask u about it
<water> i've never noticed a language like that outside of clos
<water> er... s/language/object system
<hcf> how will i know if i find it?
<Rakko> bye
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<water> maybe the words "immutable"
<water> or "functional-style object state"
<water> not sure really
<water> hm... i wonder how much of a problem the "slate" name will be
08:40pm
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on water
<AlonzoTG> y0
<water> n0
<AlonzoTG> Have you read "the Two Faces of Tomorrow" by Higgens?
<AlonzoTG> I think that's the author.
<water> no
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> It was published in '79  Good book....
<AlonzoTG> It describes the emergance of artificial intelligence in advanced computers. 
<AlonzoTG> the author refers to techniques that are analogous to yours. 
<water> vaguely, of course
<hcf> water: could billy be refering to a lang u already know of?
<AlonzoTG> vaguely =  "we need this lunar mountain cleared for a new mass-driver".   Computer: OKAY, I'll have it done in 20 minutes....
<water> hcf: maybe, but i can't think of what he might mean in that case
<AlonzoTG> so they sit there to see what the computer does... It caused a missfire in an existing mass-driver and bombed the mountain and nearly killed the people...
<AlonzoTG> then the book describes the strugles they have to bring this new AI under controll.
<water> atg: and the point of this?
<AlonzoTG> it was a good book, I thought you'd like it.
<water> "good book"=?
<water> atg: how will it program me? :)
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<water> atg: still there?
<water> hi kauf
<Kaufmann`> LAMBDA KAPPA PI!
<water> uhh sure
<Kaufmann`> don't ask :)
<AlonzoTG> om
08:50pm
<Kaufmann`> So what's up?
<Kaufmann`> water, any progress on Slate?
<water> swapping thoughts with fare
<Kaufmann`> and what's its relation to Arrow?
<water> i will update the site soon
<water> i.e. branches for the home page
<water> hehe
<Kaufmann`> heh
<water> don't worry about arrow right now :)
<Kaufmann`> why not?
<water> fare: yeah, i agree about co-induction the more i consider it
<Kaufmann`> WTF is co-induction again?
<water> kauf: on hold. the slate spec is a stepping stone
<water> kauf: check out the paper mentioned in that thread
<Kaufmann`> which thread? Which paper?
<water> hold on
<water> http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/pw/papers/bcj1.pdf
<water> abi icct is Interaction, Computability, and Church's Thesis at http://www.cs.brown.edu/people/pw/papers/bcj1.pdf
<Kaufmann`> k
<water> hm he has even more good papers
<Kaufmann`> BTW, I finally got around to starting to read that model theory text you sent
<water> ok
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09:00pm
<water> hey ruiner
<hcf> water: http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/did/25794
<_ruiner_> hi water
<Kaufmann`> yay, just got through to Chapter 2
<Kaufmann`> s/2/1
<Kaufmann`>  /
<water> heh
<Kaufmann`> 1/5 down, 4/5 to go...
<water> hcf: maybe bill meant abcl
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<hcf> abcl?
<water> actually, objectsisal in the page mentioned seems possible too
<Kaufmann`> water, good God! All this just to tell me what co-induction is?
<water> kauf: no, just a relatively small part
<water> kauf: section 4
<water> although the other stuff is very relevant
<Kaufmann`> water, but I assume I'll have to read through the previous sections to understand Section 4
<water> yeah, most likely
<water> hmm... now we have agt and icct
<water> :D
<Kaufmann`> well, I'm off.
<Kaufmann`> See you all
* water/#tunes does a little dance
<water> bye kauf
-:- SignOff Kaufmann`: #TUNES (And Brian, remember, don't talk about me behind my back... you know I'm omniscient :))
09:10pm
<water> heh
09:20pm
<hcf> water: http://www.laputan.org/reflection/ref91.html
09:30pm
<water> hm
09:40pm
<water> unfortunately, it doesn't let code=data properly, it seems
<hcf> http://x40.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=316956233&CONTEXT=947741859.1639186464&hitnum=1
<water> thx
<water> that's quite a search string :)
<hcf> i put deja's engine thru a rigorous workout everyday
-:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Zhivago[th.merddin.com.au])
09:50pm
<hcf> putting more stuff up soon?
<water> yes, but i'm reading too darn much
<water> there will be quite a bit tonight to post
<hcf> when will the prototype code be put up?
<water> when i get most of the spec done and have a long session with a good lisper
<water> boy, do i really have to re-write the arrow papers
<water> but i will ignore that for now
<water> hmm linear logic relates to nested types
<water> is there a good intro on linear logic?
<hcf> good isnt a good word
<water> heh
<water> s/good//
<hcf> http://www.csl.sri.com/linear/sri-csl-ll.html
10:00pm
<water> thx
<hcf> http://theory.stanford.edu/~iliano/LLF/ilv/ilv.html
<water> heh ok
<hcf> http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/misc/mosaic/common/omega/Web/Groups/fox/people/fp/courses/linear/links.html under intros
<hcf> tho the 1st url seems to be the epicenter
<water> yes
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you)
10:10pm
<eihrul> (if (and 1 0) 2 3).... is that supposed to be returning 2...., because it is
<water> iirc yes
<eihrul> doh
<water> er... wait
<eihrul> 0 is logically true
<water> yeah
<eihrul> how annoying :)
10:20pm
<water> so how's the code so far for things?
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<water> hi carlito
<carlito> hey water
<water> what's up?
* water/#tunes is working on some reading and research for slate / arrow
<carlito> cool...carlito is working on a stupid presentation, and catching up on the internet
<water> k
<eihrul> water: its pretty much done, its just... buggy, severely
10:40pm
<air> water: maybe some language specs for slate?
<air> water: the page dont say shit about it
10:50pm
<eihrul> there..... delegation works
<air> eihrul: what are u doing?
<eihrul> things
<air> things?
11:00pm
<eihrul> yes
<eihrul> water: okay.... everything seems to work :)
11:10pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
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[msg(TUNES)] newlog 2000.0113
IRC log ended Thu Jan 13 00:00:01 2000