IRC log started Wed Dec 29 00:00:00 1999
<lar1> Still alive?
<water> foo :)
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1229
* water/#tunes nudges Tril
<Tril> ..
<Tril> I will need to think about the review stuff
<Tril> since I designed a layout before, want to let me do it again? This time taking categories into account?
<Tril> I'll work on it in the next few days and then get back to you
<lar1> Sure, that would be great
<lar1> Whats the eta of the design?
<lar1> And
<lar1> Need any help? ;)
<Tril> yes, I will need help
<Tril> anyways let's talk about water's problem now
<lar1> Ok
<water> hey! if it's *my* problem, it's *tunes's* problem :)
<water> :b
<water> anyway
<water> i read this book in november called "vicious circles" about recursively defined sets
<water> very interesting, and applicable to my ideas of using any part of a graph to describe (construct) a set
<Tril> you mean inductively defined sets
<water> i mean like the omega set
<water> A={A}
<water> is that what you mean?
<Tril> A={A} does that mean what I think it means?
<Tril> Actually, I can't understand what it means.
<water> it means A is the set whose only member is itself
<water> in arrow terms, it's meta-graph would be one node with an identity arrow
12:10am
<lar1> Why on earth would one want a set with only itself?
<water> that's not the point, but...
<water> describing types as members of a specific type introduces a similar type of circularity
<water> however in my case, i want to take a point in a graph and build a set based on its modality
<water> i want to treat arrows in that graph as describing set-structure
<hcf> water: this the book? Vicious Circles: On the Mathematics of Non-Wellfounded Phenomena Barwise, Jon; Moss, Lawrence S.
<water> so that i can treat "what my object can do" at a particular state as a set of possible actions
<water> hcf: indeed
<Tril> Where's beholder? Tell him his mail @ods.org still ain't working
<Tril> I got about 50 mails to him queued up at bespin retrying
<water> well, the rubber meets the road at a nearby issue
<Tril> sorry
<water> np
<water> i want to treat certain relations as graphs (sets) at a particular context(?) which relates to the current model of the arrow universe that the vm is supporting
<water> hmm.. i should re-phrase
<Tril> yes
<water> heh
<water> this relates to certain difficulties i had with formalizing "apply" for the arrow spec
<water> it turns out that "apply" strictly depends on what arrows are considered meta-graph arrows
<water> but sometimes i want to treat meta-arrows as implicit, and other times they will be ordinary arrows in other graphs
<Tril> sounds like an argument to the evaluator
<water> like a lisp env?
12:20am
<Tril> i dont know much abuot a lisp env, I'm talking in my own world here..
<water> hm
<Tril> Whatever is doing the "treating" ,
<Tril> needs to do treating in two different ways,
<Tril> so I say give it an argument and you tell it which way to treat it.
<Tril> Which in my system translates into having two different evaluators, since you can partially evaluate that argument away.
<water> hm. not specific enough so far
<Tril> the "sometimes" is whatever condition you want to trigger the change in how the arrows are treated
<Tril> in my system I'd put that condition as a trigger on that argument on teh evaluator
<Tril> I could asy the same thing about your question
<Tril> When do you want them implicit and when ordinary arrows? And what exactly is it that is "reading" the arrows which will see them differently?
<water> well, it's supposed to be according to accessibility under an arrow-defined model
<water> the arrows that the model generates are the ones in the system that can be manipulated while that model is "current"
<water> which brings me to an interesting metaphor within arrow
<water> when you consider a graph to represent a state-machine, the ways to travel among the states constitutes modality...
<water> and when you consider the "rest of the world" to be a state-machine, then the graph-formalization of it coincides with the notion of ontology
<water> so you have two ways of looking at the same situation, and these two views are entirely compatible regardless of the subject matter
<Tril> I'm not sure how "rest of the world" differs from ontology by definition
12:30am
<water> hmm. i guess that i've stretched the idea a bit
<water> maybe a "formalized, localized representation" of the world
<water> well, whatever. i'll work on that explanation a bit more
<Tril> so.. that was a diversion right?
<water> the big issue is how to complete the vm formalization
<water> yeah, the "metaphor" bit wasn't entirely relevant
<Tril> there's a partial VM formalization?
<water> now, obviously at first the vm will not be written in arrow, except meta-circularly
<water> sure, like i've posted in the mlists
<water> so, i guess the question is "how much functionality does the vm need aside from being reasonably abstract and turing-complete?"
<water> which reduces to "what kinds of graphs must be emulated to make an arrow system functional and usable?"
<water> how to emulate graphs should not be much of a problem
<water> to me, the *choice* of the graphs involved is crucial
* Tril/#TUNES is kind of lost
<water> hm
<water> imagine converting lisp to arrow
<water> you have an algebra system, basic function-handling, and symbol / context handling
<water> for algebra, all you'd be doing in arrow is describing the integer as a state-machine
<Tril> integers again?
12:40am
<water> sure, for the example
<water> anyway, automated use of graphs like "+" and "=" and "*" as functions would culminate in language-level functionality
* water/#tunes ponders where to go with this
<water> make sense?
<water> sorry, i'm trying to avoid details where they seem unnecessary
<Tril> I gues I'm falling asleep
<water> darn
<Tril> I got lost at when you said algebra
<water> bleh
<Tril> do you mean like high school algebra, or mathematical algebras that ahve a set and then some operations 
<Tril> the use of + and * does not clarify bceause they're used in both
<water> i just mean the mathematics in programming languages
<Tril> when you said integer it indicatred the former
<Tril> but I was hoping you meant the other one..that's all
<water> *simple*
<Tril> what?
<water> bleh
<water> maybe we should talk this over in person
<Tril> I thought it was agreed that having numeric types built into languages was intricately related to overly low-level langauge design
<Tril> but maybe that doesn't apply here. Just normally I think of numbers as something to do later.
<Tril> After high level stuff is solid
<water> yes, but this is about being able to systematize parts of the system
<water> and i already know how to support basic arrow ops
<water> which for now is my only abstraction system built into the vm
<Tril> OK Are you land based for the near future?
<water> yep
<water> until next august
<Tril> well, I'll come back to IRC regularly then
<Tril> for now I need to go to sleep
<water> arg
<water> as regularly as this? :)
<water> i barely get a chance to talk to someone with half a clue
<Tril> more regularly than I have been I mean
<water> sigh.. ok
12:50am
<Tril> probably every day
<Tril> you want me to stay for a while now?
<water> no, not if you're tired
<Tril> I'll try to be back here in 20 hours
<water> ok. so will i
<Tril> bye
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Tril has no reason)
<hcf> water: want some urls? ;)
<water> oh great
<water> :)
<water> sure, why not
<hcf> http://www-vil.cs.indiana.edu/barwise.html, http://www.cs.indiana.edu/admin/faclist/moss.html, http://www.entelics.com/esl.html, http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/huberdyson/index.html
<hcf> http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~akman/jour-papers/air/air.html, http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~akman/book-revs/vic/vic.html, http://www.cs.bilkent.edu.tr/~akman/papers.html
<water> those last three should be one, you know
<water> and quit it with the commas!
<hcf> oopsi
<water> you know, having a bad conversation with Tril is worse than lurking in this channel for weeks
<water> :P
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
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<water> heh
<water> click the wrong button? :)
<hcf> no
<hcf> sometimes it says quit when it should of said pingout
<water> oh
<hcf> other times (rarely) i reconnect and continue w/o any signoff (no ghosting)
<water> thx fo rthe url's btw
<water> my cassiopeia gets more and more useful every day
01:00am
* water/#tunes places several research papers onto his handheld
<hcf> lar1: talk to water about arrow!
<water> heh
* water/#tunes pokes lar1
* lar1/#tunes smiles... I'm willing to learn
<water> :P
<hcf> water: lar1 here (/me points) wants to grok arrows
<water> yeah, but how much he may/may not (not grok) is what scares me
<water> hey lar1, you there?
<lar1> Yes
<water> well, if you want to learn something from a stressed-out guy, you'd better find some incentive/compensation
<water> ;)
<lar1> What type of thing are you looking for in return?
<water> dunno. i'd say i'm too stressed out to say for sure
01:10am
<lar1> Perhaps a different time would be better?
<water> isn't a different time *always* better?
<water> :)
<lar1> Heh
<water> face it, the world is pretty damned stupid to let a guy like me have a life that sucks
<lar1> What about your life sucks?
* water/#tunes plugs in the big neon "Arrogant" sign and points it at him.
<water> the navy
<water> no respect
<water> no close friends
<lar1> You get no respect?
<water> lol
<eihrul> stress has its benefits, not that i'm saying they necessarily outweight the hindrances
<water> the people i work for can't tell me from the average clod
<water> eihrul: do you have a release for stress?
<water> eihrul: i sure as hell don't
<eihrul> not really
<lar1> water:  Loud music, and somting to hit really hard is what does it for me :)
<water> lar1: you're not learning anything
<eihrul> water: but nothing strengthens idealism quite as much as it
<water> i put my hand on one of those bio-feedback stress testers
<water> and it pegged hard
<water> :)
<lar1> water:  When is your time in the navy up?
<water> 2yrs, 3mo (838 days, precisely)
* eihrul/#tunes shudders.
<lar1> So you have been in the navy for 9 months?
<water> at least i make $24k per year
<water> no, 3yrs and 9mo
<water> i'm a nuke
<water> they don't let you enlist for less than 6yr
<water> wow. i'm really revelling in depression.
<lar1> And everyone else can enlist for 3 yrs?
<water> woo hoo!!!!
<water> lar1: roughly, yes
* eihrul/#tunes finally got a smalltalk book.
<water> smalltalk books are definitely different from squeak, i've found
01:20am
<eihrul> well, squeak environment is not what i'm worried about
<eihrul> its just none of the documentation adequately covered all aspects of the language
<water> learning to squeak is like learning to be autistic
<water> god damn it!
<eihrul> well, learning to have mental handicaps is not quite simple, sir
<water> depression really bites
<water> why can't i date average girls and think "i respect this person"?
<water> but i can't, so i wind up not dating anyone after a while
* eihrul/#tunes just isn't going to bother to start.
<water> sorry, this is the wrong channel for this
<eihrul> solves the problem nicely
<lar1> Water: No, go on
<water> rofl
<water> lar1: what *don't* you want to hear about from me
<water> ?
<eihrul> water: though, in what ways does squeak differ from vanilla smalltalk?
* water/#tunes eyes lar1 suspiciously
<lar1> water:  I will listen to most anything you have to say
<water> vanilla smalltalk is usually not platform-independent
<water> lar1: then you're a fool
<eihrul> well, is it some aspect of the language
<eihrul> or the implementation?
<water> i guess it's the implementation, since al you get is the vm
<lar1> water:  Doesn't mean I will belive, understand, aggree, etc... but I will listen
<water> you don't get anything but a platform-independent vm with identical features on every platform
<eihrul> sure, but how can it be platform dependent if the vm itself must be platform independent?
<water> and the entire programming system is written in smalltalk, so there's no extensive binding with the surrounding environment
<eihrul> anything built off a platform independent vm not using external features should be platform independent
<water> i mean the vm-code is generated from the squeak system, then adapted to the target platform
<eihrul> so, you're trying to say squeak is the more adaptable creature? :)
<water> well, they try to make it that way
01:30am
<water> oh yeah, other stress factors...
* lar1/#tunes perks ears
<water> psoriasis (big ambient stress), having ideas that no one will listen to, migraines, no family, yada yada
<lar1> Are you on medication for the migraines?
<water> yep. and for the psoriasis
<water> both don't respond much
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<lar1> Have you tryed other medications?
<water> lol
<MagQQ> hello
<water> hi, mag
<lar1> Hey Mag
<MagQQ> hi
<water> mag: interested in Tunes?
<MagQQ> this is my frist time being online in irc usinf linux
<MagQQ> i am 
<water> cool
<water> on both counts
<MagQQ> i have am aims lab radio card in my puter and i cant figure out how to get it to work
<MagQQ> ya
<MagQQ> i am kinda afriad i am going to screw up system if i go poking around
<water> heh
<MagQQ> this rocks
<MagQQ> i love irc
<water> well, you should be able to find a driver (generic or otherwise) that'll do the trick
<MagQQ> aims has one for linux but their web site is down
<MagQQ> i also need to get my atapi zip drive working
<MagQQ> do you know where i would look for that
01:40am
<water> what kernel version?
<lar1> MagQQ:  Compile the kernel with ide floppy support
<MagQQ> 2.2.10
<MagQQ> i have caldera 2.3
<MagQQ> openlinux 2.3 i mean
<lar1> MagQQ:  The kernel doesn't give you a message about it on startup?
<MagQQ> i dont even know how to compile a kernel, i am REALLY new
<lar1> Ah
<lar1> Where do you have the drive connected?
<water> you're in the wrong channel looking for gurus
<MagQQ> when it comes to win products i kick butt 
<MagQQ> but not with linux 
<MagQQ> i have a lot to learn
<MagQQ> what chan do i look in then
<water> #linpeople maybe
<lar1> I can help mabye
<MagQQ> it is on my secondary slave
<MagQQ> ide
<water> well, help him on another channel, please
<lar1> fine
<MagQQ> can we chat privatly 
<lar1> Yes
<MagQQ> ok 
<lar1> I have msged you
<lar1> If you would like to go to a channel we can
<MagQQ> that is the lar1 that si dark
<MagQQ> ok 
<MagQQ> what chan
<MagQQ> #robert
<lar1> ok
01:50am
<lar1> Echo?
<water> Echo?
<lar1> Just seeing who was alive
02:00am
-:- SignOff MagQQ: #TUNES (Ping timeout for MagQQ[tnt164.web-ster.com])
* water/#tunes clutches his heart
<water> ack!
* water/#tunes falls over dead.
* lar1/#tunes calls 911
<water> |P
02:10am
<eihrul> eh?
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<water> lol
<lar1> Heh
<root> ok
<eihrul> gtool
-:- root is now known as MagQQ
<water> hey. someone just *has* to screw with root
<water> :P
<MagQQ> nono
<water> i *know* you're logged in as root :)
<lar1> MagQQ:  Its not a good idea to irc as root
<MagQQ> ok 
<MagQQ> now i know
<water> it's like irc'ing while using windoze :)
<lar1> Heh
<water> totally unsafe
<MagQQ> ok
* water/#tunes contemplates a simple flood
<water> :D
<lar1> Go for it!
<water> heh. i'm not that desperate for a laugh
<water> hell, i'm a newbie myself, really
<lar1> rm -rf /
<lar1> I as well I suppose, well a super newbie ;)
<water> rofl
<water> "super newbie"?
<lar1> Not quite newbie, not quite power user... somwere inbetween
02:20am
<eihrul> journeyman
<water> darn it, i gotta go to work in 2hrs
<lar1> Ouchie
<eihrul> no sleep?
<lar1> What do you do while you are on land?
<water> huh?
<water> what kind of question is that, lar1?
<lar1> water:  What kind of question do you want it to be?
<water> the kind i don't answer
* eihrul/#tunes thinks he's heard this same discussion before from Eliza.
<water> :P
<lar1> What, I was just curious what navy people do when they aren't on the carrier... or being on land means you are on the carrier, but docked?
<water> i have an appartment
<water> in seattle
<lar1> And you report to the carrier daily or somthing?
<water> yep. i go to work
<lar1> Ah
* water/#tunes whacks lar1 with a big fat clue-stick
<lar1> Hey its 2:25
02:30am
<lar1> ;)
<Fufie> more like 11.25  good morning :)
<lar1> Timezone dependant, for water its 5:25
<water> no, it's 0225 here
<lar1> 3:25?
<water> um. no.
<lar1> 12:oo is 0:00, right?
<water> no, 24:00 is 0:00
<water> :)
<lar1> 12am is 24:00... HEY!  24:00 _is_ 0:00!
* water/#tunes cues up "Also Sprach Zarathustra" by Richard Strauss
<lar1> Uhh
<water> the theme from 2001?
<lar1> Ah
<lar1> I knwo that
<water> but do you know who zarathustra is?
<lar1> No
<water> do you know why that melody was picked for 2001 in those few scenes?
<lar1> No
<Fufie> someone had a crush on Strauss?
02:40am
* water/#tunes whacks Fufie with a clue-club
<Fufie> he was really popular with the ladies in Vienna
<Fufie> the whole family was
<water> and of course, Kubrik was a cross-dresser in Vienna :D
<Fufie> nothing wrong in wearing a blue dress, high heels and make-up
<water> no, nothing "wrong"
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<Fufie> it was probably may
<Fufie> sunny
<Fufie> lots of handsome musicians 
<Fufie> that can drive anyone to cross-dressing :)
<water> and Kubrik was obviously as bored then as you are now
<Fufie> I have just gotten out of bed.. 
<Fufie> he had just gotten into that dress
<Fufie> he had just met this handsome violinist
<Fufie> they were dancing
<Fufie> it was a lovely moment
<Fufie> and that's when Strauss was played
<Fufie> :)
<Fufie> oh well.. need breakfast ;)
<water> good
02:50am
<lar1> fsck
<lar1> I am staying up too lat
<lar1> I might go bowling at 10pm today
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao went that a-way!)
03:00am
<lar1> This is being loged.
<lar1> So is this :)
<Fufie> :p
<lar1> So is that!
<Fufie> NOLOG: not this
<lar1> Even that! :)
03:50am
<lar1> Sleep needed later
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04:00am
<eihrul> hmm
<hcf> hmm?
<eihrul> pondering
<eihrul> just thinking about how to structure dlementine (better name pending)
04:10am
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<yoo> bleh
08:00am
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<yoo> blah!
-:- yoo is now known as ultima
08:20am
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<smoke> hi
* AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations smoke!" :-)
<smoke> hi alonzo
09:30am
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<Downix> hey
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09:50am
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<Downix> wow
<Fufie> anyone know if the court in california has started doing it's evil business?
<Downix> No idea
<Downix> Wish someone had brought a webcam
<Fufie> the corp lawyers will probably win the day
<Downix> They can only win the day if they make PC's illegal
<Downix> what they're trying to make illegal is the heart of every PC manufactured
<Downix> Reverse Engineering
<Fufie> is that legal in the US?
<Fufie> it is legal in EU/Norway
<Downix> Fufie:  100% legal
<Downix> reverse engineering non-patented products is 100% legal
<Fufie> is it a law that is non-cancellable by individual agreements?
<Downix> only on patented products is it not
<Fufie> ahh.. so it doesn't apply to patents?
<Downix> and the CSS is not patented
<Downix> Yes
<Downix> Right
<Downix> "agreements" are superceeded by law
11:00am
<Fufie> ok.. it is also above agreements in the EU and Norway
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Downix> Otherwise someone could write an agreement "You have to drive 130MPH" and no matter what the law said, you could not be ticketed for it
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fufie> it differs from law to law whether the law can be further restricted by individual agreements
<Downix> true
<Fufie> need food.. brb
11:10am
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<Downix> hey
12:00pm
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<Downix> So, anyone begin Tunes yet?
<AlonzoTG> :)
<Downix> Even a single like of C that does "Hello world, I am Tunes!"
<Fufie> main() { puts("Hello world, I am Tunes!"); return 0; }
<Fufie> ok.. hva er neste steg?
<Fufie> augh.. 
<Downix> huh Fufie?
<Fufie> wrong channel for second part
<Downix> hehe, ok
<Downix> Fufie:  Post that to the Tunes website, so we can say "Yes, Tunes is actively under development, we even have bagun coding it"  hehe
<Fufie> but it allies here as well.. how do you want to proceed from Tunes v.01
<Fufie> allies/applies
<Downix> Hmm, goodbye world?
<Downix> 8)
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> I need a working Printer. =\
<Downix> then the program deletes itself?
<Downix> "The life and death of the Tunes OS"
<Downix> 8)
<eihrul> no
<smoke> how is `deciding' done in the tunes project btw?
<eihrul> the programming has to print itself out
<Downix> just kididng
<eihrul> or else you can't very well call it tunes :)
<smoke> say, how will be decided what the hll eventually will look like ?
<smoke> is there a Deciding committee? :)
<Downix> no clue
<Downix> Ok, I nominate eihrul to be the deciding committe.  j/k
<smoke> imho the true path to nirvana is not to be found easily btw
<Downix> nope
<Fufie> smoke: what if it is?
<eihrul> well, it hain't been found in half a decade
<eihrul> so i'd say the found easily part has already passed us up
<Downix> hehe
<smoke> :)
<Fufie> smoke: what if the true path to nirvana is awfully simple and we have wasted brain-cycles for thousands of years
<smoke> fufie; then we'll probably never find it
<Fufie> pessimist
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us914.javanet.com])
<smoke> :)
<Downix> Fufie:  What if the true path to nirvana was a simple "Hey joe" on the street?  
<smoke> well, i rather think there's not ONE such path
<smoke> rather an infinite plethora of alleys
12:30pm
<Downix> likely
<smoke> and a path in a given context (being `modern' computers) could be a very steep and twisty one
<smoke> too bad my english is not good enough to omit metaphors
<Fufie> I think the true path is surprisingly simple
<Fufie> be nice and have fun and please don't hurt others
<Downix> hmm
<Downix> Fufie:  Crowley said that ya know
<Fufie> Crowley said all sorts of stuff..
<Fufie> and Crowley hurt people
<Downix> Yes
<smoke> fufie; ah yes, but one cannot make a high level language behave nicely and tell it to have fun (awk doesn't hurt anyone by itself, so the third suggestion is no problem)
<Downix> He knew the right way, and he chose to flee it
<Downix> Fufie:  A wise man who ignores his own advice is a fool, and he was one
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<Fufie> I fail the second part
<Fufie> my head is a mess
<Downix> Mine is erratic, but it's together
<smoke> fufie; having fun is almost equivalent to not having fun and laughing about that
<mibin> heh
<Fufie> smoke: almost, but not quite the same
12:40pm
<Downix> brb
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12:50pm
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<Downix> hey
01:00pm
<Downix> Ok, just posted a comment to /., someone comment me up!
<Downix> hehe
<Fufie> which discussion?
<Downix> the one where eToys dropped the suit on eToy
<Downix> Wow, I'm at the bottom
01:20pm
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* Downix/#tunes feels like such a luser here, hoping for "karma" from /.
<Downix> hehe
<eihrul> karma?
<Downix> eihrul:  A way of raising a /. user's rating
* eihrul/#tunes ponders in what manner karma is related to /.
<eihrul> the odd thing about /. is that it also serves as end-sentence punctuation
<Downix> yup
<Downix> lol
<eihrul> since /.. just looks funny
<Downix> hehe, yesz
<Downix> I like it
<Downix> Cool, I raised by 4-lines
<Downix> 8)
* Downix/#tunes ponders
<Downix> hey eihrul, did you read the ADA comments about the future of Amiga?
01:30pm
<eihrul> the only context i know Ada in is Ada Lovelace or her namesake language :P
<eihrul> i don't quite know what ada you're referring to
<Downix> Amiga Distributors Association
<eihrul> so what were the comments?
<Fufie> they must have lively meetings
<Fufie> "hey, today I actually managed to sell one old amiga"
<Fufie> "you did? wow.  I think I have an old A500 I might be able to sell"
<Downix> eihrul:  That Gateway wants nothing less than to kill the Amiga
<Downix> eihrul:  Thanks to an internal memo they got from an insider
<eihrul> url?
<Downix> Fufie:  hehehe.  Actually, 4000 Amigas were sold last year.  Brand new ones that is
<Downix> eihrul:  http://www.aio.co.uk
<eihrul> 4000 is enough to keep a company alive eh? :)
<Fufie> downix: someone bought a warehouse from a bankrupt company?
<Fufie> which happened to include 4000 amigas?
<Downix> Fufie:  No, Micronik in Germany produces 1200's
<Downix> eihrul:  Yes
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<Fufie> who buys A1200?
<Downix> Fufie:  Uh, I did
<Fufie> ok, apart from you
<Downix> Fufie:  Quite a few still do, 1200's are very expandible.
<Fufie> or did you buy all 4000?
<Downix> Fufie:  with the new tower case, a Z4 plug in board (gives it 12 additional expantion slots) and you're set to go
<Downix> Fufie:  Plus with the PowerPC cards availible, the 1200 is a nice machine.  (PowerPC power w/o the overhead of the MacOS)
<Fufie> macs hate me
<Fufie> they die when I enter the room
<Downix> Fufie:  Mac's hate me too
<Fufie> and then they show a picture of a sour mac and shows a hex number
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> lol
<Fufie> 0xDEADBEEF they say
<Downix> Fufie:  lol
<Downix> Fufie:  I'm getting a tower and Z4 for my 1200 as soon as my G4 comes in. (550mhz G4, 75Mhz 68060)
01:40pm
* eihrul/#tunes senses an ionic bond there.
<Downix> hehe
* Downix/#tunes thinks Mac's hate fufie like Windows hates me
<AlonzoTG> om
<Fufie> windows also hate me
<smoke> hm. i have written a routine in C that calls itself recursively about 500,000 times, which it should, but it segfaults because of a lack of memory.. what can i do about this?
<smoke> lack of stack reserved memory or so
<Downix> Fufie:  Soul Brother!!!!!!!
<Fufie> rewrite it as a loop
<smoke> fufie; ehm very hard to do.. it's a floodfill algorithm for a pixelpainting program
<smoke> could i try to implement my own calling system and use a fixedsize malloced array instead of arguments?
<Fufie> squeakos?
<abi> squeakos is Squeak In One Disk at http://members.xoom.com/squeakos/
<Downix> I'm trying to introduce someone to UNIX
<Downix> Would the QNX demo disk be a good way?
<smoke> downix; if (s)he comes from windows, kde may be an option
<Downix> smoke:  They want to "try it before they buy it"
<Downix> smoke:  So I thought the QNX demo disk may be a good method
<Downix> show off UNIX's stability at least, and it's speed improvement over Windows
<AlonzoTG> Linux hates me.
01:50pm
<Downix> AlonzoTG:  Well, stay with DOS then
<Fufie> down: is UNIX faster than Windows?
<Downix> Fufie:  I've seen a performance improvement on all of my systems
<Downix> Fufie:  Until I run X, which I rarely do
<Fufie> ahh.. but is that a fair comparison then?
<Downix> Yes it is
<Downix> I CAN run in CLI w/ full functionality
<Downix> with Windows, I loose that
<Fufie> CLI on UNIX?
<Downix> Fufie:  BASH
<Fufie> is it fair to cmpare bash with a windowing gui system?
<Downix> Fufie:  Fair enough, I just want to show her that UNIX is not as "dangerous" as she's been told
<Fufie> then show her KDE or GNOME
<Fufie> and skip the speed part
<Downix> I will, but the thing is for now she wants to see before downloading.  So I was thinking QNX would be a nice step
<Fufie> probably not
<Downix> Well, I don't think a working system w/ KDE or GNOME would run off of a handful of floppies
<Downix> A single disk UNIX-like would impress her enough to trust me installing KDE, which is my plan
02:00pm
* Downix/#tunes is bored
* eihrul/#tunes is pondering.
<Downix> me too
* eihrul/#tunes needs to figure out where to start on dlementine.
02:10pm
<Downix> oh?
<Downix> dlementine?
<Downix> Cloning Clementine now?
<eihrul> least until i get one or the other
<Downix> hrm?
<Downix> Don't worry eihrul, you'll get in there
<Downix> Just learn patience
<Downix> If you MUST work on something, help me design a sound system
<eihrul> nah :)
<eihrul> i think dlem might be more fun
<Downix> Damn
<Fare> Downix: why not say, copy the ALSA API?
<Fare> start with a simple latched D/A converter.
<Downix> Fare:  No D/A inside the chip
<Fare> well, with a n latched lines, to plug into a simple external resistor circuit far D/A conversion, then
<Downix> Fare:  Also that is for a mostly CPU-centric design, we're more akin to a DSP
<Downix> self-processing
<Downix> Fare:  *nods*
02:20pm
<smoke> fare; what are your plans for the HLL for tunes currently? are you working towards The Ultimate Language, or just try to combine the best of all existing languages and fill in some gaps ?
<Fare> (also need a clock circuit to schedule latch refill)
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Downix> Hmm... using ALSA tho is not a bad idea
* Fare/#Tunes hides his ignorance in circuit design behind generalities
<Downix> Fare:  it's alright
<Fufie> circuit design.. is like.. low-level.. really low-level ;)
<Fare> smoke: both
<eihrul> Fufie: so where would universe design fall in the order?
<smoke> downix; you may want to contact jaroslav or the mailinglist
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is looking for the fastest PICMG SBC in the world. =P
<AlonzoTG> Current champ: dual P3xenon/ 2 gb ram... $9,500
<smoke> fare; so you think TUL is somewhere out there?
<Downix> smoke:  Why?  Who is he
<Downix> Fufie:  it is the lowest-level
<smoke> downix; jaroslav kysela == perex == employee at SUSE == founder of ALSA project
<AlonzoTG> nobody makes athalon SBCs =((((
<eihrul> anyone know if "ld" is distributed with binutils?
<eihrul> or if it is in its own separate package?
<smoke> eihrul; it is
<Downix> smoke:  Alright.  I'll keep an eye out for me
<Downix> smoke:  Alright.  I'll keep an eye out for him
<smoke> eihrul; as and ld are bin binutils
<eihrul> ah
<eihrul> good
<smoke> downix; the alsa project eventually wants to get rid of the L in ALSA, and most developers are very open towards other os'es, although they haven't done much (if anything at all) outside of the realm of linux
<Downix> smoke:  *nods*  I know, and it's sad.  I like ALSA, and I wish it would work with BSD or even my Amiga
<smoke> hm
<smoke>         Syntax is purely for human convenience. LISP sucks because it
<smoke>             forgot that simple statement.
<Downix> hmm
<smoke> i don't think lisp's syntax is that bad
* Downix/#tunes shrugs
<Downix> seen a lot worse
<eihrul> depends, lisp didn't just chuck syntax for the hell of it
<smoke> make that `brainfuck'
<eihrul> atleast it got something valuable in return
02:30pm
* eihrul/#tunes hates gnu code.
<smoke> eihrul; i think i don't understand you.. could you elaborate a little?
<Downix> eihrul:  I've seen good GNU code
<eihrul> most everything is a list
<eihrul> Downix: Readable code is purely for human convenience. GNU code sucks because it forgot that simple statement.
<Downix> eihrul:  not all GNU is bad, but a lot of the GNU OS project code is
<eihrul> well, that happens to be the code i'm reading
<Downix> sucky
<Downix> try the EROS project
* eihrul/#tunes is looking at ld.
<eihrul> unless eros implements its own linker, its of no use
<smoke> :))))
<Downix> eihrul:  let me see
* smoke/#tunes is off for some reallife reading. good day to you all!
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<Fare> grrr
* Fare/#Tunes is back
<eihrul> re
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<Downix> eihrul:  I can't figure out eros
<eihrul> Fare: know of any better linking code i can find?
<Fare> linking code?
<eihrul> i.e. ld
<Downix> Fare:  Like ld
<eihrul> but not ld
<Fare> what are you trying to do?
* Downix/#tunes has been trying to find a better ld for ages
<eihrul> Fare: am researching for dlementine :)
<Fare> John Levine recently wrote a book on linking
<Fare> linking as a special feature is mostly for lame static languages a la C.
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<AlonzoTG> om
<Fare> (or horrors like C++)
<eihrul> Fare: how else would you propose to link dlem components? :)
<Fare> FORTH.
<Fare> self-linking language
<Downix> hehe
<Fare> don't write "object code". Write "installers"
<Downix> Fare:  Any other C-linkers you know of?
<Fare> i.e. code that installs other code.
<eihrul> that is practically what the linker is :)
* Fare/#Tunes remembers the code for bcc, that was not much commented or featureful, but pretty straightforward.
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Fare> eihrul: if you consider it with the meta-installer point of view instead of a magic "linker", then it's easier
02:40pm
* Downix/#tunes designs all of his programs with a meta-installer, or self-linked
<Fare> factoring the meta-installer gives you as shared code the "linker"
<eihrul> shrug, the only difference in how the 'dictionary' is represented
<eihrul> er is in
<Fare> eihrul: in how your synapses are connected, too
<eihrul> whereas in one instance its part of the language environment
<eihrul> its implemented atop the language environment in the other
* Downix/#tunes shrugs
<Fare> eihrul: since I'm interested in reflective systems, I think that's precisely the point
<Downix> Fare:  Thank you for the ALSA API idea, this is exactly what I needed
<Fare> Downix: where do I send the bill?
<eihrul> Fare: tis easier to reflect on something if it isn't hidden in the implementation of the language...
<Downix> Fare:  Hehe, it has not worked out yet, help eihrul. 8)
<Fare> Downix: hey, when your board is done, I'm interested in getting one!
<Fare> eihrul: why "hidden"?
<Downix> Fare:  When we get into "developmental prototypes" We'll be sending it to OS and app developers... I think we can swing one
<eihrul> Fare: well, my experience with forth is very limited
<Fare> eihrul: what about LISP?
<eihrul> but unless forth is perfect, it must inevitably hide some aspects of its dictionary
<eihrul> limited, but not very limited :)
<eihrul> trying to rectify that
<eihrul> gah, perhaps dlem is a bad idea anyway
<Downix> not a bad idea
<Downix> Ask core whgat he uses to link
<AlonzoTG> om
<eihrul> i already know
02:50pm
<Downix> What does he use?
<eihrul> just vanilla indirect calling mixed with some idl information
<Downix> ok
* eihrul/#tunes ponders just playing with SqueakOS or some such and being done with it.
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<fire> abi seen core
<fire> abi: seen core
<fire> damnit i forgot the syntax
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 23 hours, 31 minutes and 38 seconds ago, saying: changes the density of matter [Tue Dec 28 15:23:44 1999]
<abi> core was last seen on IRC 23 hours, 31 minutes and 38 seconds ago, saying: changes the density of matter [Tue Dec 28 15:23:44 1999]
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<eihrul> Fare: though hmm, what about bootstrapping and such, implement forth in forth?
<fire> is there a SELFOS?
<eihrul> isn't that merlin?
<eihrul> abi: merlin?
<abi> merlin is at http://www.lsi.usp.br/~jecel/merlin/
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<Downix> hello
<Downix> geesh
<fire> ah
-:- fire is now known as Upix
<Downix> What was th last thing I said?
<eihrul> <Downix> ok
-:- Upix is now known as fire
<Downix> I started analyzing the ALSA API while watching the 1996 Dr Who movie
03:00pm
<Downix> And I commented, "Ya know, it's not that bad, why didn't they continue the series?
<fire> eihrul: how comes your macro language?
<Downix> So learned anything eihrul?
<eihrul> fire: eh, that was just an exercise in inanity, man
<eihrul> Downix: i'm reading "ansi common lisp" instead, much easier than that gnu stuff
<Downix> eihrul:  LISP is impressing me a lot.  But I need a better tutorial on it
<fire> i see 
<fire> i can give you a scheme tutorial
<Downix> how does scheme compare to C for run-time speed?
<eihrul> Downix: well, i bought a lot of books on it... after i read through some, i'll let you know if they're any good
<fire> better than CLISP
<Downix> fire:  How compared to C?
<Downix> eihrul:  Alright
<Fufie> fire: CLISP is an implementation
<fire> i can't tell you
<Downix> hmm, ok
<Fufie> down: expect scheme to be slower than c
<fire> really Fufie
<Downix> How much slower Fufie?
<Fufie> down: also expect it to be more powerful than c, but still a subset of common lisp's power
<Fufie> down: depends on the implementation, expect a factor between 2 and 10
<Fufie> (for compiled code)
<Downix> Fufie:  Hmm, worried about performance then
<Fufie> well scheme is a beautiful language and is excellent for teaching, but it's not meant to be "industrial strength"
* Downix/#tunes nods
<Downix> ok
<eihrul> Fufie: can you recommend a small, common lisp system (interpretive) so i can play as i read? :)
<Fufie> eih: the smallest is probably CLISP but it's not too fun to learn in imho
<eihrul> well, what else is there?
<Fufie> eih: get ACL 5.01 from www.franz.com and set it up from Emacs and play with it..
<Fufie> it's a 10-15M download though
<eihrul> agg, frames
<Fufie> CLISP is 8M source download
<Downix> better than GCC
<Fufie> common lisp systems are pretty large compared to toy languages
03:10pm
<eihrul> Fufie: agg, these tar's say redhat....
<eihrul> they're statically linked i hope?
<Fufie> the redhat version worked on debian and suse for me
<eihrul> ah, good
<Downix> hmm
<Fufie> the included unzip requires that you have libc5 installed though
<Downix> hmm
<eihrul> libc5? agh
<eihrul> why do people still use it?
<Fufie> *shrug*
<Fufie> it has been reported as a bug though
<Fufie> it might be fixed in what you dl
<Downix> libc5 is common is likely why
<Fufie> most dists do have libc5 compatibility library though
<Downix> Hmm
<Downix> This API has a lot of redundant functions... why?
03:20pm
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* Downix/#tunes is enjoying this movie, well cast.  Managed to pull it off even with a weak scripts with more holes than a termite infested 2x4
<AlonzoTG> wat moovee?
<Downix> he 1996 Dr Who made-for-tv movie
<AlonzoTG> hmm...
<AlonzoTG> =\
03:30pm
<AlonzoTG> DiD NoT CoMe Ar0uNd My T0wN
<Downix> Hehe
<Downix> I've got it on tape
<Downix> Not a horrid movie
<Downix> A Dr. Who fan Alonzo?
<AlonzoTG> well I hafn't Ceen it in nearly a dekade. =((((
<Downix> Other than this movie, it has not been made in a decade
<Downix> Of course this summer the BBC is making a radiodrama series on it
<AlonzoTG> bah.
<AlonzoTG> what we need is a $300,000,000 feature film!!!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<Downix> AlonzoTG:  Actually I have enough contacts where I could write one
<AlonzoTG> Scene one: 
<Downix> Depends on which villan it should be
<AlonzoTG> Blue emergancy police telephone booth appears in downtown Daton Ohio....
<Downix> lol
<AlonzoTG> Oops there is no plot here... 
<AlonzoTG> Scene two: 
<AlonzoTG> Blue emergancy police telephone booth appears on Altair IV
<AlonzoTG> =
<AlonzoTG> =)
<Downix> scene three:  Alonzo writes an OS
03:40pm
<AlonzoTG> =\
<Fare> grrr
<AlonzoTG> Hey, I need a printer.
<Downix> And I need an OS
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> Okay... 
<AlonzoTG> Lets review your prototype requirements....
<Fare> I need some will
* AlonzoTG/#tunes pulls out his wallet, How much do you need, Fare?
<Fare> A big deal
<Downix> Hmm
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<AlonzoTG> =\
<Downix> hmm
<AlonzoTG> Okay. 
<AlonzoTG> I really am in endgame mode with implementing this prototype....
<AlonzoTG> Its just a matter of solving a handfull of remaining problems.
<Downix> ok cool
03:50pm
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is waiting for the DeCSS update on /.
<Fufie> according to wired.com the courtroom was a fun place
<Fufie> floppies with DeCSS was given to everyone, including the judge
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> FuN! =)
<fire> http://www.ragingbull.com/mboard/boards.cgi?board=CORL
<fire> have at it fellas
<fire> tell them how much C sucks :D
<AlonzoTG> I hope the defense made the point that this was for "LIVID" not piracy...
<Downix> hmm
<Fufie> http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,33336,00.html
<Downix> Fufie:  Ooo, going to wired....
04:00pm
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<AlTeRnAtIvE> hi all
<mibin> alternative...
<mibin> hiya
<AlTeRnAtIvE> what's up ?
<mibin> nah, not much, you?
<fire> get your IO problem fixed?
<AlTeRnAtIvE> fire : Is that with me ?
<mibin> i am always having IO problems
<AlTeRnAtIvE> mibin : I'll travel tomorrow ! To my uncle's house...
<mibin> more O than I btw
<fire> yes
<AlTeRnAtIvE> fire : I have a litle problem with a C program...
<AlTeRnAtIvE> i have to make a program that opens an ANSI file, read the first caracter and put it into a variable...
<eihrul> why do you "have to"?
<AlTeRnAtIvE> eihrul : i don't "have to" but i wanna learn how to do that...
<eihrul> better
<AlTeRnAtIvE> eihrul : can u help me ?
<eihrul> char c = fgetc (fopen ("foo.bar", "rb"));
04:10pm
<AlTeRnAtIvE> cool. thanks. i'll try that.
<Fufie> alter: of course you lose a file pointer that way
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<eihrul> sure
<Fare> Alt: I have a problem with your /nick
<eihrul> but he didn't say he wanted to close the file!
* AlonzoTG/#tunes left clicks on Fare
<eihrul> Fufie: he got what he asked for
<Fare> ATG: yes?
<Downix> hmm
<Fufie> eih: duh :p
<Fare> C sucks; use OCAML.
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<AlTeRnAtIvE> Fare : what's going on ?
<Fare> It sUcKs.
<Fufie> alternative: what is an ANSI file?  do you mean ASCII file?
<AlTeRnAtIvE> Fufie : yep.
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<Fare> Alternative: (define c (read-char))
<Fare> in OCAML, use stream-matching
<Downix> hmm
* Fare/#Tunes once wrote a pure-stream library in caml-light, long ago
04:20pm
<AlTeRnAtIvE> well, i have to go. I'll travel tomorrow, and will be back just in the next year (in the end of january), so... Happy new year to u all ! sEe YoU iN tHe NeXt YeAr !!!!!!!!!!!!!!
<AlTeRnAtIvE> bye.
<mibin> bub i alternative
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04:30pm
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<Downix> grr
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05:30pm
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<AlonzoTG> MY GOD!!!
<AlonzoTG> FATBRAIN!!!
<Downix> huh?
<AlonzoTG> THEY ACTUALLY SHIPPED A BOOK!!!
<Downix> huh?
<AlonzoTG> I thought the book was a goner...
<AlonzoTG> but they actually FOUND it!!!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<AlonzoTG> Algebraic and Logic Programming.
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> my previous set of books was on functional programming.
<Downix> hehe
05:40pm
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<Downix> Hey, is there a good list of the LISP commands?
<ultima> uh
<ultima> a list of LISP commands? ;)
<Downix> yes
<ultima> That was cute =)
<ultima> uhm.. What dialect?
<Downix> ANSI common
<ultima> Scheme and Common Lisp both have excellent references
<ultima> go find Guy R. Steeles Common Lisp: The Language r2 for a comprehensive index.
<Downix> Alright
<Downix> thank you
<ultima> It's available both online and in hardcopy.
<ultima> Digital Press.
<Downix> Oooooo, going...
<Fare> Downix: do you know the CL HyperSpec?
06:30pm
<Fare> Downix: it's on Harlequin's web
<ultima> Oh yeh. That too. http://www.harlequin.com 
<Downix> Fare:  I know of it, have not managed to figure it all out yet
<ultima> That's pretty good too -- and there are some lisp editor interfaces for that.
<Fare> their rivals of Franz have some thing, too
<ultima> Paul Grahams ANSI Common Lisp is a great introductory and reference book.
<Downix> hehe, ok
<ultima> His On Lisp book is an awesome intermediate to advanced book.
<Downix> Ok, where's digital press
<Downix> ?
<Downix> Nevermind, figured it out
<Downix> Yahoo section on LISP is good
<Fare> Yahoo? Yuck. What about dmoz.org?
<Downix> dmoz?
<Fare> open directory project -- www.dmoz.org
06:40pm
<Downix> ok
<Fare> abi: dmoz is the open directory project
<Fare> abi: dmoz is also at http://dmoz.org
<abi> okay, Fare.
<Downix> ok
<Downix> dmoz?
<abi> dmoz is the open directory project or at http://dmoz.org
<Downix> there
<Fare> abi: where is dmoz?
<abi> dmoz is the open directory project or at http://dmoz.org
<Downix> abi:  who is dmoz?
<abi> i guess dmoz is the open directory project or at http://dmoz.org
<Downix> abi: abi?
<abi> i heard i was the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' infoslut
<Downix> ok
<ultima> #tunes' infoslut???
<Fare> so she's no more gaklosmontic, or fluvorestiginous?
<Fare> (I mean, flurivotuginuous)
<AlonzoTG> What was the first movie lame enough to use a clock connected to a bomb as a tension building device? I want to kill it's producer.
<Downix> No idea
<AlonzoTG> it's just so honking lame...
<AlonzoTG> how about a movie where there is this clock that just counts down the whole movie but all the action moves around it not noticing it and then finally the oven buzzer goes off and someone comes to take out the cookies =P
* Downix/#tunes laughs
<Downix> Actually my roomates wrote a script about a guy sleepwalking
<AlonzoTG> =)
<Downix> you see his dreams and then cut to reality
<Downix> like this one scene where he is running across the field, runs up to this beautiful woman, takes her in his arms, then cut to him kissing a cop
<Downix> 8)
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> I think that would be the end of the adventure. =P
<AlonzoTG> after that the only thing you could do is film him bumping off of rubber walls...
06:50pm
<Downix> hehe
<Downix> nah, it goes on
<AlonzoTG> om
<AlonzoTG> Its funny about Brave Gnu World.
<Downix> oh?
<AlonzoTG> The immages Huxley uzes are right out of 1931, the science, the idea of the assembly line, but even still the idea of custom made humans, if the mechanics of producing them are different, is even more relevant today.
<Downix> uh, ok
<AlonzoTG> anyway.
<Fare> I have a self-quotation about Huxley's novel.
<Fare> What's wrong about the society described in Aldous Huxley's "Brave New World" is that betterment of mankind doesn't come from an increasing amount of energy being dissipated, but from an increasing amount of information being processed.
<Downix> hmm
07:00pm
-:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<Downix> hey
<AlonzoTG> wat?
<abi> wat is it then?
<AlonzoTG> rats 
<AlonzoTG> I'm 22
<Fare> poor you
<AlonzoTG> well, on newyarn i'm gonna be.
* AlonzoTG/#tunes needs job.
<AlonzoTG> =\
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
<Downix> finally
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-214.s468.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
<Downix> dang
<AlonzoTG> I just went to see if nan0guy was around...
<Downix> ok
07:10pm
<Downix> wow, got a list
<Downix> now I need to see LISP in use
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
-:- SignOff ultima: #TUNES (Humans are just animals!)
07:20pm
-:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Twat?! I cunt hear you!)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us214.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- water [water@tnt-9-192.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<hcf> hoy water
<water> hey
<AlonzoTG> om
<water> hmm. cool links on the review mailing list
<AlonzoTG> Water: 
<water> AlonzoTG: :)
<AlonzoTG> How would I test wheather my brain was cognitavely handicapped?
<water> huh?
<water> with respect to what criteria?
<AlonzoTG> Well I can hack well enough but when it comes to writing an essay for an english test I just lock up...
08:40pm
<AlonzoTG> Appearently I can't or am ecceptionally poor in thinking the way the engilsh teacher wants or the question is unreasonably hard.
<AlonzoTG> And these ideas you talk about, 
<water> what sort of essay?
<AlonzoTG> It seems that you have bridged the gap and can think about programs in the same way as the english professor questions and which I can't comprehend...
<water> heh
<water> interesting... what's the question type?
<AlonzoTG> I can't remember, Stuff like "How did you feel when you got a bike for christmass when you really wanted a train..." 
<water> oh
<AlonzoTG> I end up attempting a brute force search of my memory for instances of things similar enough to that occourance and it takes incredibly long where in other types of searches my brain is extremely fast.
<water> answering questions like "how do i feel about ..." usually requires a certain kind of analytical honesty about oneself
<water> lol!
<AlonzoTG> Anyway, I have to rest up for my birthday outing tomorrow and the 24hour millinium meltdown the day after...
<water> it's really strange how programming makes you think differently about yourself
<AlonzoTG> yes. 
<AlonzoTG> It is quite stimulating.
<water> well, the important thing for questions like that is the ability to draw metaphors
<water> which isn't quite computational in nature
<water> in literature, this is called identifying a "recurring theme"
<AlonzoTG> But it seems to be an attribute or something attributed to higher intelligence. =\
<water> heh.. i make it sound technical
<hcf> abi: PizziOS is at http://members.xoom.com/_XMCM/edpizzi/pizzios/index.html
<water> atg: no, just a different aspect to thinking
<AlonzoTG> Now that's my kind of OS!
<water> heh. screenshots, too
<water> well, anyway, to work with metaphors requires a different attitude toward things
* water/#tunes contemplates for a moment
<water> it's like optimizing a program by looking for patterns in the source code
08:50pm
<water> there are usually a few patterns to identify, and only one or two are significant to optimizing the code
<water> however, the choice of the pattern to focus on depends on the processor
<AlonzoTG> hm...
<water> e.g. intel vs. risc
<AlonzoTG> I'll sign up for english sometime soon and I'll discuss the first problem I'm really stuck on here and see if I really am cognitively incomplete =\
<water> in english lit, there is a corresponding type of process
<water> hold on... i'm not done
<AlonzoTG> Maybe I might actually pass it and then go on to a real school and get a real job....
<AlonzoTG> =\
<AlonzoTG> and a real lyfe....
<water> in real life, there are many ways to look at a given situation, even for a single person there is no single appropriate perspective
<water> the point of metaphors is to allow a person to see the patterns that link one's current perspective to others that raise new possibilities
<water> so, the way to approach a question like the one your english teacher posed...
<water> is to identify the patterns that the situation described supports, and to see how those patterns fit (or don't fit) into your worldview
<air> heh, pizziOS moves all memory to prevent fragmentation
<water> can you apply that?
<water> air: what? :)
<air> did u read the pizzi page?
<water> not much
<water> whoa... weird
<air> when u deallocate memory it will do a rep movsd to bring down all the memory above that hole
<water> yeah
<air> pizziOS will be about as fast as win98
<water> yep
<water> well, maybe if he allows re-ordering of memory contents depending on "volatility"
<air> he will need to add a "please standby, moving memory" dialog
<water> atg: still there?
09:00pm
<AlonzoTG> yeah, 
<AlonzoTG> I posted a big hunk of data (128kb) to my mailinglist... (I'm wondering how my empty source tree takes up all that space)
<water> bleh, it turns out that the lisp guy on my ship is not working on a new language, he's just making a better version of ActiveX, it seems
<AlonzoTG> eeek!
<AlonzoTG> RED ALERT, ALL HANDS ABANDON SHIP!!! 
<air> and his only docs on his OS are "Mandelbrot and Julia Set Tutorial"
<water> lol
<water> again, lol
<water> well, at least he seems to rtfm
<water> (having noticed the links to the intel ref guides)
<AlonzoTG> Yeah, I was reading those yesterday trying to tweak the ecception system in my realmode prototype. =P
<AlonzoTG> I really must leap into bed now.
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
09:10pm
<water> ponder, ponder, ponder
<water> i llead such a ponderous existence
<water> lead, even
09:40pm
<hcf> ho hum
09:50pm
<water> something has to give
<water> i'm sutck in a rut
-:- fire [no@209-68-229-150.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes
<fire> agua!
<fire> could someone tell me the big advantages of persistant storage over virtual memory
10:00pm
* water/#tunes whacks fire with a ruler
<fire> ow!
<water> what's the diff between the two, fire?
<air> well if the comp shuts down u no longer have the data in virtual mem
<fire> one stores as needed and the other always stores
<fire> i know that
<fire> but what else
<air> one is a way to increase ram and the other is a way to store data
<water> so it's a basic difference in loading strategy
<fire> wouldn't it be inefficient to store data all the time?
<water> yeah, and "increasing ram"  is just an illusdion for lame language programs
<water> geez!
<water> it only stores the data that's necessary to store
<water> that's a meta-store protocol
<fire> ...
<water> you can implement whatever meta-store protocol you want
<air> and then there is persistent virtual memory
<water> yeah, which i don't prefer, but...
<air> whats wrong with it?
<fire> D:
<water> the "virtual memory" part
<fire> i thought in persistant memory you just store every object not in use
<water> fire: you're over-simplifying
<water> drastically
<air> heh
<fire> sorry 
<fire> im not well versed on the concept
<water> no, you're just not using your noggen
<air> water: do u know what persistent virtual memory is?
<water> air: yes
<air> the entire store is mapped into memory
<water> it's another unnecessary illusion for programmers that a well-designed store should handle dynamically
<water> :P
<water> :)
<fire> water: then how should memory work?
<air> fire: like in brix
<water> bwa hah haha!!
<water> seriously
<water> however you want it to work
<air> fire: brix is the best way
<water> fire: brix is air's way
<fire> how does brix do it?
<air> persistent store
<fire> explain persistent store to me since i am obviously missing something
<air> well its like a filesystem and memory is a cache
10:10pm
<water> yeah, and you don't treat the hard drive as a cache for ram
<air> when u access an object(file) it gets loaded and whatever and it then gets flushed back to disk
<air> no brix doesnt do virtual mem
<water> i know, just explaining for fire
<air> when u run out of ram it finds objects that havent been accessed and flushed them
<fire> when is it flushed though when you're done?
<water> heh
<fire> hehehe
<fire> yes very funny
<water> flushing is done almost constantly
<water> similar to gc'ing
<fire> isn't that a little inefficient?
<water> not as inefficient as virt mem can be
<air> how can it be inefficient?
<fire> so that's just like i said
<fire> any object not being used is flushed
<air> it makes the ram work just like the cache so its only as inefficient as yer cache
<water> yes, and not more ineffcient
<air> if object A is not being used but object B needs to be used but u have no ram then its not inefficient to flush A to load B
<fire> but flushing takes up clock cycles
<water> geez... it's not *that* computationally intensive, though
<air> fire: if u buy lots of ram then u wont need to flush often
<water> you just clear out the ram used and send the data to the hard drive
<air> fire: but if yer a tight ass and want to have lots of shit running then get use to it
<air> if the data hasnt been modified then it doesnt have to save to disk
<water> just like how more ram improves virt mem performance
<air> ya
-:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp208.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<fire> welcome insane one
10:20pm
<air> cya
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
10:30pm
<fire> like 
<fire> tunes wants every file to be an object
<fire> so what about directories?
<water> erg
<water> fire: what are directories in linux?
10:40pm
<fire> ...
<fire> files?
<abi> files are dated may 97
<eihrul> 97?
<fire> abi: forget files
<abi> fire, I didn't have anything matching files
<water> directories are inode structures
<water> *objects* (low-level ones)
<fire> oh
<water> tunes just wants to do this within a unified high-level programming system, to make it easier to modify
<water> even Squeak now has it's own kind of high-level file structure
<fire> like how?
<water> they call them image segments... they're name-spaces for system modules
<water> how what?
<fire> how would it work for tunes?
<water> ergggg
<water> how dense are you, anyway?
<fire> D:
<fire> you aren't very nice are you water?
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all....if you are currently using a wingate, please email us at support@openprojects.net....pass the word around....we might just add a block for wingate clients if there's no objection....thanks
<water> no, you are much more dense than most other people i know, and i know some real rocks
<fire> :(
<water> fire: consider an inode to be like a linked-list with attributes
<fire> how many 15 year olds do you know with my interest in CS
<water> quite a few, being the tunes r&d and q&a guy
<water> it seems the only people i know who are under 18 are coders
<fire> D:
<fire> oh well
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Once again, please email support@openprojects.net if you use a wingate and have a problem with blocking them.  These exploits are going to have to stop. 8)
<water> it's not a problem for you to be interested in cs, it *is* a problem to pester me with questions that are beyond what you're ready to deal with
10:50pm
<water> i.e. write some code
<water> experiment to try to duplicate someone else's idea or program using a simple language
<fire> ...
<fire> okey
<fire> things that have already been done are boring  ¬_¬
<water> but i'll bet that all of your best ideas have already been done (nno offense)
<fire> *sigh*
<fire> i suppose so
<eihrul> not to say they don't warrant doing again...
<water> right
<water> but it is always funny to see someone's web page for their super-duper unique idea that you've seen five times before
<water> :)
<eihrul> does that give the first person to come up with the idea to do it either?
<eihrul> no
<eihrul> er rather the liberty to....
<water> i know, it's just that over-enthusiaasm for programming ideas is rampant
<eihrul> that is true... just write a paper and be done with it :)
11:00pm
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  We're under a bit of a script kiddie attack.  Since the wingate exploit is contained, they've taken to minor sniping.  Please let us know if anyone takes to bothering you, and we'll give them a lollipop and send them home. 8)
<water> heh
<fire> i suppose i will be going to bed now
<fire> good night all
<water> well, not many people have any suggestions for my squeak code at all
-:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (¬_¬)
<eihrul> openprojects has script kiddiez now?
<eihrul> sad
<water> they do?
<eihrul> i keep getting broadcasts from lilo
<water> oh
<eihrul> the current arrow code for squeak is rather passive, though
<water> sure, but i don't have a firm set of desgn specs to commit to
<eihrul> have there been any updates to squeakos lately?
<eihrul> abi: squeakos?
<abi> squeakos is, like, Squeak In One Disk at http://members.xoom.com/squeakos/
<water> a few
11:10pm
<eihrul> hmm, i thought it used oskit?
<water> so did i
* eihrul/#tunes distinctly remembers the post saying he had played around with oskit over the weekend.
-:- MagQQ [root@tnt031.web-ster.com] has joined #tunes
<water> heh
<MagQQ> hello
<water> someone's logged in as root again! :)
<MagQQ> i changes my nic to magqq
<water> yeah, but your ident says 'root'
<MagQQ> my modem only connects if i am logged on under root
<MagQQ> so i have to
<water> not good
<water> just run ircii under a user account
<MagQQ> when i use my RH account it keeps saying kppp daemond died unexp...
<water> and switch to root when you have to change the connection
<MagQQ> can i su to my RH account
<water> yep
<MagQQ> ok 
<MagQQ> i su RH   :  *****
<MagQQ> so i am out of root now right
<water> yeah, but you should run ircii from your user account
<water> not from root
<MagQQ> ok 
11:20pm
<MagQQ> i will be right back... i am going to try something
-:- SignOff MagQQ: #TUNES (using sirc version 2.211+4KSIRC/981227-pre0.9)
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all.  Please remember, we're all human here.  Think before you snap off that unfriendly comment.  The person on the other end of your conversation really is living in RL ;)
-lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] With that little editorial comment in mind, looks like our episode is over. Thanks for your patience. 8)
11:30pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1230
IRC log ended Thu Dec 30 00:00:02 1999