IRC log started Wed Dec  8 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1208
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!ChanServ:*! spice used GETPASS on channel #linuxaus
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<Fufie> hei
<tmf> hei
<tmf> Have you read the mail I sent?
<Fufie> yes
<Fufie> I will answer it pretty soon too, just need to tidy up a bit and make some breakfast first
<tmf> practicing relaxed living?
<Fufie> it's nasty weather outside and I don't want to work today, neither for money nor on my thesis
05:00am
<tmf> I just came to work an hour ago - pretty soon I'll be doing some serious stuff :)
<tmf> what is your work?
<Fufie> tidying and breakfast is serious stuff :)
<tmf> sure is!
<Fufie> I work at www.icesoft.com when I find time
<tmf> what do they do?
<Fufie> our main product is a web browser written in java. excellent for embedding
<tmf> cool
<tmf> (even though java is burning out)
<tmf> have you seen flash ?
<tmf> pretty flashy stuff!
<Fufie> java will stay with us for a long time
<Fufie> flash.. as on the litago site?
<tmf> ?
<Fufie> nice enough but doesn't work too well on linux
<tmf> why?
<Fufie> it is that plugin thing you're thinking of, no?
<Fufie> brb.. must buy breakfast
05:10am
<smoke> is there a decent opensource alternative to Maple and Matlab?
<smoke> (wonder if i could ask here)
<smoke> brb
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05:30am
<Fufie> hmm pasta for breakfast
05:40am
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
07:30am
<Kaufmann> ...anyone?
<Fufie> hi
<Kaufmann> hey
<Kaufmann> what's up?
<Fufie> I am fixing evil bugs in a javascript engine for a browser.. 
<Fufie> a lot of fun.. not
<Kaufmann> what browser?
<Kaufmann> in what language?
<Fufie> icebrowser (www.icesoft.com) in java
<Kaufmann> well, at least it's not in C
<Kaufmann> I just read a funny piece called "how to debug in C"
07:40am
<Fufie> one thing is sure.. the most dimwitted programmers on the planet they program in javascript and think it is great
<Fufie> and they also do "html-programming" and should be shot
<Kaufmann> no... the most dimwitted programmers on the planet do CGI.
<Fufie> CGI is a nice and clean interface
<Kaufmann> LOL
<Kaufmann> relatively, maybe
<Fufie> compared to all the other inane bullshit people come up with cgi is as clean as fresh snow
<Fufie> it's basically a normal program that gets some environment-variables and parse them and print to stdout.. _simple_
<Fufie> you can even write in bourne shell
<Kaufmann> well, I guess it gets the job done (although a /real/ application-level protocol, with built-in state and session handling, would be infinitely better). The problem isn't CGI itself... it's the countless idiots who pick up "Learn CGI with Perl in 2¼ days" and think they're master hackers
<Fufie> yes.. that is the problem.. not cgi
<Kaufmann> yeah, you can write a CGI program in bash... the question is, why would you want to?
<Fufie> cgi wasn't designed for anything else than simple stuff and manage that nicely
<Fufie> I wrote a cgi-program in bourne shell yesterday to check that cgi worked properly
<Kaufmann> heck, CGI was /designed/ ?
<Fufie> cgi was designed yes
<Kaufmann> by whom?
<Fufie> check the rfc
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<Fufie> give me cgi any day instead of inane losers who like javascript
<Fufie> (esp. since I have to fix the engine to be lenient because of people's stupidity)
07:50am
<Kaufmann> I'd figured it was just the next logical step for some HTTP server implementor or other... "gee, how can we interface our programs with HTTP?" "I dunno, just have the server create a new process and read its output." "But how do we pass the input data?" "Just throw it into some arbitrary environment variables and let the program read it."
<Kaufmann> CGI and JavaScript have completely different purposes...
<Fufie> I would probably curse about cgi-programmers as well if I wrote a web-server
<Kaufmann> the thing is that it's pretty easy to write a bad Perl program... just as it's pretty easy to write a bad JS program.
<Kaufmann> MAN, that's some poor website design!
<Kaufmann> I mean, the colour scheme is good, but all the rest is horrible
08:00am
<Kaufmann> ARGH, and it's closed-source!
<Fufie> ehst site?
<Fufie> what site?
<abi> site is most likely dead
<Kaufmann> icesoft.com
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<Kaufmann> well, I suppose the v5 download is a Win32 executable, right?
<Fufie> no.. a few jar-files
<Fufie> I develop on linux
<Kaufmann> oh, good :)
<Kaufmann> when I saw the .zip extension, I got afraid
<Fufie> win-people do the site and packaging
08:10am
<Kaufmann> *sigh* I remember the days when all art and advert depts. were on Macs...
<Kaufmann> ROTFL
<Kaufmann> Amazing! You're actually reading this. That puts you into one of three categories: a student who is being forced to read this stuff for a class, someone who picked up this book by accident (probably
<Kaufmann> because you have yet to be indoctrinated by the world at large), or one of the few who actually have an interest in learning assembly language.
<Kaufmann> (last two lines quoted from "Art of Asm")
<Kaufmann> well, is this icebrowser any good?
<Fufie> imho it is getting quite decent
<Fufie> it's almost in the ie, netscape and opera league
<Fufie> but it is a component for other systems
<Fufie> not a stand-alone browser for john doe
<Kaufmann> so I read... but I assume that you /can/ run it as a stand-alone app under a JVM?
<Fare> gakuk
<Fufie> yes.. that's how I run it when developing
<Fufie> hi fare
<Kaufmann> Hey Fare... how's our favourite evil mastermind?
<Fare> who?
<Kaufmann> thou
<Fare> hush
<Kaufmann> aw, never mind
<Fare> someone may be hearing
* Fare/#Tunes is now officially commanded to develop the Tunes LLL.
<Kaufmann> "officially"?
08:20am
>>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.150] requested PING 944670184 from #tunes
<Kaufmann> So, "officially"?
<mibin> where is water, officially?
08:30am
<Kaufmann> In the Navy
* Kaufmann/#tunes hears old tunes go by his auditory channel
<Fufie> fare: aren't you already in charge of LLL? It says "Currently mismaintained by Faré"
08:40am
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<Fare> no, by my boss
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<Kaufmann> who's your boss?
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08:50am
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<tmf> hi, anyone here?
09:10am
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<Fufie> ehh.. ja
<Fufie> answered your mail now
09:20am
<Fare> my boss is the fabulous JBS
<Fare> Jean-Bernard Stefani of FT/CNET/DTL/ASR
<Fufie> jbs?
<Fufie> ahh
<Fufie> someone should shoot scott mcnealy
<hcf> Fufie: why's that?
<Fare> shooting him won't make him a better man
<Fufie> check /.
09:30am
<Fufie> they basically took the blackdown code and shipped it as their own without giving credit.. the license gave them room for it.. but still.. no credit
<Fare> Die, Sun, die!
<hcf> whats inprise got to do w/ it?
<Fufie> they were sun's loyal sidekicks and added a jit compiler
<Fufie> a much needed jit compiler, but still.. blackdown basically does most of the work and no credit.. 
<Fufie> as some guy said, they could've at least given proper credit and handed over a few ultrasparc's
09:40am
<Fare> Sun... sucks
<Fare> abi: Sun is a company of vicious people who never play the game fairly, and try to lure people their way
<abi> i haven't a clue, fare
<smoke> hm
<smoke> where can i read about (big) application design with functional languages?
10:20am
<Fufie> there are som articles about it spread around for lisp and some parts in books
<Fufie> but I don't know of any big tome specifically for that
<Fufie> much of the general lore will still hold though
10:30am
<Fare> smoke: erlang.org
<Fare> smoke: or alu.org
<Fare> or caml.inria.fr (?)
10:40am
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<smoke> fare: hm
11:20am
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* smoke/#tunes has no clue whether to use ocaml haskell or common lisp
<smoke> (or even scheme)
12:10pm
<Fufie> use to do what?
<AlonzoTG> om
<tmf> ooohm
<smoke> fufie; to build a pixel painting program and a music tracker with
<Fufie> common lisp has common music which would help for the tracker
<smoke> fufie; everyone here says ``Use "my favourite language"'' and the documentation for each language states "this language is best", and books do the same
<hcf> abi: cm?
<abi> somebody said cm was Common Music, which does Music in Common LISP, by the CCRMA at http://ccrma-www.stanford.edu/CCRMA/Software/cm/cm.html
<Fufie> the scheme manual states that common lisp is best but scheme is prettier ;)
<smoke> fufie; i'll build the programs from the ground up, both to learn the language and have most freedom. (yes i have too much spare time)
12:30pm
<smoke> unfortunately all languages i've seen so far are suited for the job
<Fufie> scheme is not suited for making a tracker or a painting program imho
<smoke> i could pick the first one alphabeticallyof course
<smoke> ah! interesting remark. why?
<Fufie> because it lacks low-level primitives and is hard or impossible to optimise
<smoke> ah
<smoke> i'm also wary about the typing differences between {ocaml,haskell} and common lisp
<smoke> common lisp seems more powerful, but also more 'error-prone'
12:40pm
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<_ruiner_> is /. down?
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<mibin> _ruiner_: it wasnt some minutes ago
01:30pm
<_ruiner_> hmmmm...ping and tracert both get through...
<_ruiner_> ah..there we go
<smoke> hum
<_ruiner_> hum
01:40pm
<mibin> heh
<mibin> hmm
<smoke> :)
<mibin> (:
<_ruiner_> (c:',
<_ruiner_> hmmmm....
<mibin> what is this?
<mibin> telephaty training?
<_ruiner_> I'm sending you the answer telepathicly
01:50pm
<mibin> damn stop flooding me with messages
<mibin> =P
<_ruiner_> anybody here using enlightenment as their window manager?
<Fufie> no.. sawmill
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<Fufie> anyone read the jikes mailing-list? seems as if sun is really hated at ibm as well
<_ruiner_> link fufie?
<Fufie> I can forward the mail just sent out to you
<_ruiner_> ruiner@centuryinter.net
02:00pm
<Fufie> the jikes url is http://www.ibm.com/research/jikes/
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<_ruiner_> wow, slackware only needs 4 meg of ram and 20 meg of hd space
02:10pm
<Fufie> theoretically yes.. I did not manage to get it working with 4mb ram
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02:20pm
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<carlito> hey ruiner
<_ruiner_> hey!
<carlito> what's up?
<_ruiner_> just checking out some stuff
<Fufie> tmf: get yourself a decent mail program.. :p
03:00pm
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<Kaufmann> FOO!
<Fufie> BAR!
* Fufie/#tunes enters the bar and gets a cold beer
* Kaufmann/#tunes , not believing in voluntary alcoholisation, gets himself a glass of goat milk
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<eihrul> notice he said 'enters the bar'
<Fufie> rather extreme that goat milk
<eihrul> didn't say 'goes to the bar'
<eihrul> AFAIK, tunes is not a bar, therefor fufie was lying
<Fufie> I was not lying.. by all means
<Fufie> at #tunes there are tunes and that is songs
<Fufie> where there are sings to sing there are wine and girls to be had..
<Fufie> ok.. maybe I was lying :))
<eihrul> only girl in here is abi
<Fufie> yeah..
<eihrul> and she's a bot
<Kaufmann> LOL
<Fufie> the girls part was more extreme than the goat's milk
<Kaufmann> Now that's the kind of intelligent dialogue for which I come here
<Kaufmann> forget all that silly CS nonsense
03:20pm
<Fufie> how can we tell that noone in here is a girl?
<eihrul> because noone's hitting on them yet
<Kaufmann> I dunno... we could devise some incredibly crafty method of sending each person here a Trojan horse that uses their audio hardware as a radar, forming an image of the person in front of the keyboard and sending it back to us, thus enabling us to see what they look like
<Kaufmann> or we could just ask them
<eihrul> (1) is more fun
<Fufie> girl?
<Fufie> abi?
<abi> yes, Fufie?
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<Fufie> :)
<hcf> abi: be abi
<abi> look at me, i'm cute!
<Kaufmann> LOL
03:30pm
<smoke> :)
03:40pm
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<Downix> hey-lo all
<smoke> hi downix
<Downix> what's up?
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03:50pm
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<_ruiner_> abi : seen lar1
<abi> lar1 was last seen on IRC 2 days, 16 hours, 32 minutes and 7 seconds ago, saying: It looks _very_ cool [Sun Dec  5 23:27:39 1999]
04:00pm
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<Kaufmann> Bye all
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04:10pm
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<_ruiner_> anybody here know about the napalm?
<_ruiner_> vid card
05:20pm
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<AlonzoTG> om?
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :))
06:10pm
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<myrkyr> Hello. I just went to the Tunes webpage, which is... to say the least, hard to understand. Anybody care to give me a simplified overview?
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07:00pm
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<rares> soy capitan
08:00pm
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<rares> soy capitan
<eihrul> eh?
<rares> n'm
08:30pm
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<lispbliss> anyone awake?
11:10pm
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<Tril> yah I'm awake
<lispbliss> is tunes like a general purpose OS?
<Tril> yes, it is planed to be. Eventually.
<lispbliss> does it have PPP support? unix compatibility?
<Tril> no, it doesn't have anything yet.  No code.
<air> Tril: i just found yer brother Treb
<air> #rcchat@rco.iglobal.net
<Tril> air: I dont have a brother, and my sister doesn't use the internet
<Tril> lispbliss TUNES is a mess of concepts right now
<Tril> which needs to turn into a concept-management system somehow
<lispbliss> ahh, somewhat like LispOS was :)
<Tril> I dont know that much about lispos, just that we have a lispos mailing list archived on the tunes server, and that it turned into a bunch of individual projects
11:20pm
<Tril> so that list is closed now.  There's a scheme_os list which is low traffic and has a few separate projects on it as well.
<Tril> air: There's lots of Trils on the Internet. If you must distinguish me then use the long name Tril0byte
<lispbliss> Tril, I meant that tunes was like lispos...lots of talk, no code.
<Tril> lispbliss know anthing about reflection?
<Tril> actually, we're doing less even of talk...
<Tril> lately I've not been even thinking about tunes. But I am now.
<Tril> i'm designing a partial evaluator. I never even used a partial evaluator before.
<Tril> need to learn more about closures.
<lispbliss> no, actually I was wondering what you guys meant by a Reflective Computing System
<Tril> which explanation do you want, the user's perspective, or the technical meaning?
<lispbliss> user
<Tril> for a user it just means every part of the system is visible you can go in and look at it. Like source code, except interactive.
<Tril> does that even make sense?
<lispbliss> yes
<Tril> all dependencies are traced out and you can follow them interactively to see how things fit together. It's really hard to do that in an existing system.
<lispbliss> not very useful to a user
<Tril> No, not to a "user" as we know him today. But the "programmer-user" which we see in the future, where everyone uses AND programs their own computer, it is useful.
<Tril> If programs are designed to be edited by the user, they cant have ugly code and they cant be unmaintainable
<lispbliss> hmm
<lispbliss> won't have that many users then :) but it should be an interesting system
<Tril> and we get rid of the concept of applications, and do everything at a much finer grain. Well, you obviously know lisp. In tunes the whole system will be made of functions which each do a simple specific task.
11:30pm
<Tril> heard of partial evaluation?
<lispbliss> yeah
<lispbliss> no
<lispbliss> what is it?
<abi> or low probablitiy that someone wins in a lottery.. but with enough tries the chance increases.. imagine how many lives have contributed to that gene pool and all others.. amazing work
<Tril> is where you take a function and then pick a specific value for one of its arguments. Then creates a new function without that argument, but is the same as calling the other function with that value for that argument.
<Tril> I.e. specialization
<Tril> too many 'that's but did you understand?
<lispbliss> yeah
<Tril> you know about OO stuff?
<lispbliss> not much
<Tril> generalization is adding an argument to a function. You specify a group of functions, one associated with each possible value of the new argument
<Tril> then you get a new function with another argument, and whatever value you put there simply selects one of the more specialized functions
11:40pm
<lispbliss> ahh, well, it is 12:30 so I better be getting to bed, since I have a chemistry final tomorrow...later
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<Tril> i think I aced my microecon final today
<Tril> 12:30? someone's in Mountain time
<air> damn it is 12:30
<air> he was from idaho
<Tril> oh. What's ont.micron.net? not ontario?
<Tril> air: I was gonna ask you something.. oh yeah.. don't need to anymore
<air> is ontario mountain time?
<Tril> I don't know
<air> and micron is based out of idaho
<Tril> I was going to build a pedal generator for my computer
<air> pedal generator?
<Tril> but I don't have much electronics experience
<Tril> yeah I want to pedal and have it create electricity you know so I dont get fat sitting by my computer
<air> and this electricity will power yer comp? :)
<Tril> but then i need a regulator and an inverter. I think I need a battery also :)
<air> when u stop yer comp turns off
<air> a generator will produce AC
<Tril> I heard that is a good way to moderate kids' TV use. Hook the TV up to pedal generator so they have to work while they watch
<air> but u need to generate like 200 watts
<Tril> more, for my monitor :)
<Tril> It produces AC with what wave form?
<air> no it produces AC with whatever waveform u pedal with
<Tril> that's what I thought
<air> if u can pedal that thing 60 times per second and consitently then...
11:50pm
<Tril> ok so if we're talking a simple system that just goes from pedals into AC is that possible?
<Tril> uh, you can use gears to make something small turn more times per second
<air> if u have a couple ppl to pedal
<Tril> can you explain the calculations?
<air> how about this
<air> use the power from the pedals to maintain gate current on an scr or soemthing
<Tril> oh yeah we're supposed to go to #osdev to have this conversation. It's off-topic.
<air> u pedal it turns on power to the comp, u stop it turns off
<air> but it uses power from the wall
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1209
IRC log ended Thu Dec  9 00:00:00 1999