IRC log started Mon Dec 6 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1206 -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-45.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey-lo all morning 12:20am * Downix/#tunes has begun work on a simulator for his system Ok, more like I'm trying to make a decent MIPS CPU emulator first All I'd found was to the MIPS-1 ISA we're using the MIPS-5 Then time to make the blitter, the sound system, the video control processor, the I/O system, etc. Oy vey my work is never done. heheheh Then it'll be time to work on the OS 8) it's probably a good idea to use a simulator, yes let's you have a parallell implementation as well I know And test out ideas THing is this simulator is going to crawl Compared to the final product Hell, a 7Mhz Amiga simulated crawls on a 400+ Mhz Pentium II Try a system made for 800+ Mhz performance * Downix/#tunes pictures a VERY slow simulator but it should work Let's see how it goes I believe in getting stuff to work first, then optimise * Downix/#tunes nods that's why I don't start programming stuff in C or C++ What do you program in? Common Lisp usually All I know is C, BASIC, Pascal and COBOL If I knew LISP I'd probably use that cross-platform would be a big advantage How good is LISP depends on use * Downix/#tunes has only used LISP on EMACS for irc and WWW and VHDL work 12:30am xEmacs is a useful tool it's clearly the most expressive and powerful language around, but for low-level stuff C is usually used because OSes are usually written in C and you need C to interface Emacs has a sucky and outdated Lisp Emacs really needs a major overhawl IMHO yes, it needs to be rewritten in Common Lisp I don't need low-level stuff, I'm here to simulate functionality Any good on-line tutorials on LISP? yes * Downix/#tunes knows his system is going to ve hideously slow, the video section alone is a bitch to program for due to it's RISC nature. Well, simulating my system will be hideously slow http://psg.com/~dlamkins/left/sl/sl.html ok Can you imagine a video system where compiler technology controls it, not fixed standards? I don't know Instead of saying "Mode 13h is video decent work for the compiler? my compilers are not allowed to watch video ;) Instead of saying "Mode 13h" and being stuck with 320x200x256, you can vary that to your needs hehehehe Actually, I found faster speeds if the compiler could access the video system why would the compiler do stuff to the video-system? To allow mid-draw alterations mid-draw? 12:40am Example would be in an Amiga my compiler should not draw anything my compiler should compile code and produce compiled code It compiles the source which when executed fires up the video system but that is the compiled code I hope, or a loader or something In a PC it does this by firing up VGA modes right I don't mean the compiler actually does video work what did you mean then? I mean you can code and compile software to run the video system, instead of having the video system dictate it's terms to you the video system is hardware, no? Yes which means it has predefined functions that you have to use so it controls your day Semi, it has intructions instructions/functions, same thing the video system is a customized processor instead of just a display system tho the processor is still hardware Yes it controls what the compiler can do.. just as now it controls what every program can do Pretty much but, giving a compiler knowledge of video-optimizations for your platform is a decent thing The key difference is that it is more flexible. No built-in display modes, instead it opens up the underlying drawing technology Allowing for more optimized video display brb.. need to get more cereal k 12:50am * Downix/#tunes just found a compiler coder on telnet... mmmm pardon? telnet? -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp02.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes I run a telnet chat site Eihrul, SLEEP! morning can't ok or rather, i'm not let ok can't isn't the right word ok (loop (say "ok")) :) ok 8) there ya go... we've been wasting 30 years of artificial intelligence research when all it takes to simulate downix is just that yup 8) hehe 01:00am -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[9dyn77.delft.casema.net]) so what does the "compiler coder" say? He's going to help get F-CPU a compiler Better than nothing At least good work for a worthy effort I'm still looking at C LISP CLISP? CLISP is a Common Lisp implementation by Bruno Haible and Michael Stoll at http://clisp.cons.org ACL? i think ACL is Allegro Common LISP, free of charge proprietary software at http://www.franz.com * Downix/#tunes nods hmm you might want to check out the Language Review at tunes.org ok 01:10am -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat) LISP looks a lot simpler than C so far I've managed a hello world program Man, I just want to code a simulator LISP is simpler than C Yes it is and much more powerful Better than ASM C however is built on an easy model Yes 01:20am Lisp is much more mathematical and built on more complex theory * Downix/#tunes nods C is very simplistic Well, simplistic design, means more complexity for the programmer Take MIPS vs VAX VAX is a breese to program for Anyways hmm now I have to actually DESIGN the user-end of my system 8) do the commands instead of the binary elements Man, I'm amazed by how simple my system really is less complex than most CPU's hmm how the hell am I going to route this? outputting the video to screen and audio to speakers won't be a problem but how do I do the USB and Firewire when this system lacks both? 01:30am hmm ok, need some sleep good night -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Its not TV. Its BitchX.) 01:40am -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn218.delft.casema.net] has joined #Tunes hi hi 02:30am -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [02:33am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn218.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn126.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- astrain [astrain@ext53.ncshealth.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smoke[16dyn218.delft.casema.net]) -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn126.delft.casema.net]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-247-22.s22.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn126.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[209-122-247-22.s22.tnt8.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.176] has joined #tunes Shalom! 09:40am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-137-246.s500.tnt4.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes Hey Al I've found a newish OS I think you'll find interesting Ever heard of V2_OS? 10:00am Al...? nopers http://www.v2.nl/v2_os/ 10:10am -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (Ping timeout for zarq[10dyn126.delft.casema.net]) -:- zarq [zarq@10dyn126.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Have Nice Day :)) -:- SignOff astrain: #TUNES (astrain has no reason) -:- astrain [astrain@ext53.ncshealth.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff astrain: #TUNES (astrain has no reason) * Fufie/#tunes yawns * Kaufmann/#tunes yawns back :) so what's up? never mind, I was just leaving anyway -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("They say the lights are always bright on Broadway" (Genesis)) 11:00am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us639.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-55.ici.net] has joined #tunes hi all 12:20pm -:- Miellaby [sgarden@ppp-44-28-69.wmar.club-internet.fr] has joined #TUNES Hello hi Hi Downix. What's up ? nada, you? Well, not quite nada. Working on the Linux kernel a bit while also working on an emulator for my hardware design 12:30pm ... :) ok. I wonder whether there was more available documents about Arrows system. I would not know Do you know this project ? I love it. I do, Tunes looks good, but noone is really working on it that hard That's complex because all these new ideas have to be designed simultaneously in order to keep the project its value. If Tunes had a chance of being done in any kind of schedule with my hardware, I'd use it. * Downix/#tunes nods What's about your hardware. How is it work ? I guess it must be revolutionnar. Revolutionary is one way of putting it, but evolutionary is how I put it but it's 100% against the direction that PC's are headed Instead of putting more functionality into the CPU (things like MMX, video display, etc) we are putting more functions into the control chips of the system Making co-processors to do most of the work, so that the CPU can busy itself on more critical tasks, like OS management -:- Miel [sgarden@ppp-44-41-108.wmar.club-internet.fr] has joined #TUNES -:- td [x@1Cust219.tnt3.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes cut of Meil? hey td hey Connection lose . which families of functions have to be included in order to do the OS managment ? I'm not very fond of this option. it's ok Meil: Just standard integer functions -:- SignOff Miellaby: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Miellaby[ppp-44-28-69.wmar.club-internet.fr]) basically, in a PC, most of the audio, video, I/O work is done by the CPU I'm sure there is a way to organize the OS software so that no more hardware functions are needed. which means when the CPU is busy... the system gets VERY slow 12:40pm Possibly, but OS design is not my forte' I though there is already such computer skeleton. The audio and video computation are decentralized into peripherical cards inside PCS ? Not at all, unless you buy very expensive parts a 3Dfx card for instance relies on 40% of it's screen draw work and 60% of it's 3D rendering work on the CPU in my design our video and 3D system will use less than 1% Must I understand that you neither want the CPU to drive the video or audio computation processes. Theses processes would manage to work by themselves ? Right I 've the feeling it's rather a question of how the OS will map the application needs and what hardware provide, isn' it ? Less work done by the CPU means the faster the CPU seems Somewhat a lot of the task will be handled in hardware, allowing the OS a much easier interface Can you give an example of such a high level feature ? Similar to how the Amiga worked Alright, to handle the video system, all a programmer would need to do is to tell the program to draw the screen the hardware would set up the memory needed on it's own Aw... I didn't dare giving the Amiga example ; now I understand which kind of Interface your hardware provide. Alright 12:50pm Amiga is one example, AS/400 is another one Is there a GUI on AS/400 ? Nope AS/400 doesn't even have a video section seen Tril Tril? Tril is working on writing this 1 page paper for the participants in a meeting for me tomorrow. ok but the concept is the same, customized control processors doing all of the work Downnix : I apologize I don't find your goals very dreaming. You want to build a monolithic computer with high level media drivers, as an extension of what 16/32 computers were designed. It's a kind of regression. Meil: Not quite. Open-architecture only works if there's a set standard to work with. We're making a standard for a more powerful architecture, without sacrificing flexibility Open-architecure only works if the code is good -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (Ping timeout for td[1Cust219.tnt3.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net]) Yes Fufie Fufie: Giving a good solid base to work from tho makes good code easier to produce -:- td [x@1Cust222.tnt4.wilmington.nc.da.uu.net] has joined #tunes naturally 01:00pm Miel: Here's a point to make, my old Amiga 2000 toasted any PC I threw at it. Even high-end Pentium 2's could not handle it's performance video-performance or performance in general? Fufie: performance in general bah Fufie: I had a few plug-in cards to expand some capabilities My computer would beat a lousy amiga -:- Closing Link: TUNES[bespin.dhs.org] by bear.openprojects.net (Ping timeout for TUNES[bespin.dhs.org]) -:- Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success -:- Use /Server to connect to a server -:- Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: For more information about BitchX type /about -:- Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- Your host is lewis.openprojects.net, running version u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) (from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- This server was cobbled together Wed Apr 28 1999 at 12 02:19 EDT(from lewis.openprojects.net) -:- lewis.openprojects.net u2.10.05.18.(ipcheck4-5) dioswkfcg biklmnopstv -:- [local users on irc(5)] 1% -:- [global users on irc(306)] 46% -:- [invisible users on irc(353)] 54% -:- [ircops on irc(17)] 3% -:- [total users on irc(659)] -:- [unknown connections(0)] -:- [total servers on irc(33)] (avg. 19 users per server) -:- [total channels created(183)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !lewis.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 9 (8 clients) !lewis.openprojects.net Welcome to Open Projects! You are on 3 ca 1(2) ft 14(14). -:- Mode change [+f] for user TUNES -:- Mode change [+iws] for user TUNES -:- JOIN activated by "TUNES #tunes tunes@bespin.dhs.org " -:- TUNES [tunes@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- Topic for #TUNES: Free Reflective Computing System || #reactos || Lengua :D -:- topic set by fire [Sun Dec 5 11:38:32 1999] -:- [Users(#tunes:9)] [ TUNES ] [ td ] [ Miel ] [ Downix ] [ zarq ] [ smkl ] [ Fare ] [ abi ] [ Fufie ] -:- Channel #tunes was created at Sun Feb 28 08:48:06 1999 -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Join to #tunes was synced in 7.167 secs!! -:- Mode change [-s] for user TUNES I've got an ST. It was a much better optimized hardware. I know that Amigas are still better. Fufie: 2 Picasso 4 cards w/ Picasso3D extentions, a Penetrator card and a GVP 060 accel co-processor is all I need. Meil: And the Amiga is also extremely more flexible than a PC IMHO. so, a system where the OS runs on a 7Mhz 68000 CPU outperforms most PC's Considering the CPU timing, those 16/32 computers where really outstanding. * Downix/#tunes nods Meil: IMHO I think they have a lot they could teach us. Meil: I studied them for my own design. I remember when I leave my ST to buy a wonderful 486. I was really disguted by Win3.1, the PC memory management, the Intel assembly. Berkkkk.... Agreed I was a die-hard PC man, until someone with an Amiga 3000 blew my Compaq 486 out of the water I had twice the Mhz, and it just zoomed past me in everything And when I went "Well, I have popular software" the guy just booted up MacOS and ba-boom, he was running popular software too I felt pathetic, returned my Compaq to the store and bought my Amiga 2000 01:10pm nevertheless, I still think that the main problem -nowadays- is to provide an OS which can handle every existing hardware and their future improvments. It means that such an OS must be flexible and redefinable to its maximum. Meil: I disagree. Developing hardware right now is so hap-hazard that a full half of all system failures are due to conflicts in the hardware, all of which was not designed to work together an OS to take care of that mess would be gigantic By resolving this problem, exotic platform will win the right to live. // Gigantic : this is not sure at all. Miel: Want me to name 100 sound DSP's that lack drivers? Or more to the point 100 DSP's that have issues with other hardware out there? Preparing for the millions of hardware combinations out there is a difficult task I'm not as much strong as the TUNES member to answer this question. But I'm convinced that there's a revolution to be done. ... by breaking out every dichotomous frontiers existing in the actual way of modeling the computer resources. Miel: It's all how you look at the problem. You're taking the "support everything" approach, I'm doing the "optimize it" approach I guess the right solution must be "both together". Right I'm designing a hardware system which can be augmented in such a way to support these myriad of add-ons Without the normal performance loss found in a PC 01:20pm Creating a solid base platform, and then allowing extentions for other various purposes the Amiga had this capability, the Amiga 1200 having the best example of it * Downix/#tunes is planning on buying a new Z4 board for his 1200 soon When starting, my own approach of how to handle an ideal OS was quite the opposite of TUNES crew's one. I though indeed that the key of the success is to pull down modern "high level" features in the lowest layers of the software material. More precisly those kinds of features which allow to easily redefine all concepts (even most basic ones)... for instance, to custom an OS to a particular hardware platform. Miel: A custom OS is fine, as long as it is not a fixed OS AmigaOS should not be able to handle a PowerPC co-processor, or 16 million colors, or PCI slots, etc. but it does, because they designed it to extend and expand as technology did if TUNES can do this, as a high-level abstract OS or as a hardware-specific OS, it will survive 01:30pm The Atari's OS could not do this as well (I had a TT) isn't it NetBSD which is supposedly very nice on a wide range of platforms? NetBSD's philosophy is "Yup, NerBSD runs on that" and 90% of the time, they're right would not NetBSD be a decent candidate for your OS? then you could even have a Chuck as mascot ;) Fufin: BSD is an option, but not a core option due to it's "exclusitivity" exclusivity? you mean the community? or the OS? the community Plus BSD is difficult to scale down enough to fit onto a ROM But it can be done. in ROM? Fufie: The core of whatever OS I use needs to act like a BIOS does to a PC TUNES approach assumes (to sum up) that a modern OS should have no more low level layer model. Each thing is defined though high level operators and concepts, even a rather fundamental API such as the console output and input may be absolutly rethinked, depending on an infinit stack of contexts : which platform, which GUI, which user, which profile, which dynamical environment context, which calling software agent ... it's something very di Meil: But it can do the same task that a low-level OS can. I'm saying as long as TUNES does not loose it's ability to be extended in infinite ways, it will do well how can you have reflection in ROM? Fufie: The ROM would be nothing but enough of a system to boot the real OS a bit earlier you wanted BSD into ROM Fufie: Which is why BSD would not be idea, it's bootloader lacks the drivers to access the drives Fufie: I said enough to load the OS. (bootloader mostly) like LILO Right I thought BSD required a relatively small loader 01:40pm Right, but that small loader has no access to any drives outside of what an outside source gives it to get it to work I'd have to built the BSD kernel into the ROM, which just hurt reflectivity At least netBSD lacks the UFS problems of FreeBSD Don't you have a very classical definition of reflexivity ? I guess you means that the OS can be re-compiled and re-booted ? Not quite, more like I am not sure if putting the OS into ROM is a smart idea The Amiga did it well, but I lack the Amiga's extreme flexibility of course I have the AmigaOS's source, big help that is since it's copyrighted Calling a volatile OS a reflexive one is quite a very very reducing definition of what the reflexivity is. I'm not saying Amiga is reflective, only that it's flexible I though so, since you're are on the #TUNES channel. Meil: Reflectivity facinates me, but I lack a real-world OS to study it with I really wish TUNES was furthur along I admit. My experience is with various UNIX's from AmigaOS to UNIX IV 01:50pm I hate c++ C++ is not my facorite language it's too verbose.. too much to write for simple stuff Fufie's got me looking into C Lisp Fufie: Agreed currently trying to make sense of a c++ fron-end written in c++ BTW Fufie, you have got me hooked on LISP. I've gotten my simulator furthur along then I thought I would did lisp help with your simulator? Yes it did wow Of course now I'm trying to figure out where that harliquin RPM installed the damned binaries. hehe /usr/local/lib/lispworks*/ I think -:- SignOff td: #TUNES (td has no reason) Got it, thanks Considering TUNES, On the fly references solving + linearity detection are the keys of success. But I still wonder how a totally abstract assertion can eventually conduce to hardware calls. I persist on the idea it's possible to design such a VM without creating a new hut. a VM, possibly with a JIT is probably the best way to approach imho.. hardware is too low probably Probably Ironically, there is no real solution hehe.. talk of a release has awakened the lurkers on the mailing-list of my project.. just talk of a release and they come to life :) Which project? the develeopment tool Ok 02:00pm Sounds like F-CPU seems as if someone has made the gui we need the second someone posts that we're making a simulator, BAM people come out of the woodwork oh? c++ is simply ugly. java execution freezes your computer whitout bringing any new improvment. Speaking about other languages makes people considered you as an outcast. That's really sad. I know * Fufie/#tunes is an outcast.. the university here is java-land I was discussing LISP on a talker last night, a guy went down my throat with C In college I was a REXX fiend my seminars and lectures have made sicp common on bookshelves though Which fit in, I ran an Amiga, the school was OS/2 based Weird The new Java religion is worst than every preceding ones. We should prepare to a new period of data-computing regression :) Java looks silly to me silly? Looks like someone wanted FOURTH and fucked up Fufie: The grammer I mean. the grammar is pretty much c++-like but simpler True * Miel/#TUNES is drowning under close-minded brains. Miel: More like a mind that does not quite understand I don't speak about you ;) closed minds are minds that don't know and refuse to know 02:10pm -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn117.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes I persist to tell about 'closed minds'. That's what most of us are. true We just can't imagine any more than things could be different. Data-computing is the only area when I begin to discover this fact. How much technologies suffer of the same disease ? car-enginery ? chemistry ? that's frightning ! -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp271.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes I know Look at the Tucker Torpedo <_ruiner_> know what? <_ruiner_> talking cars? Talking how closed minds want to stamp out new thinking hi -:- mibin [mibin@62.11.103.185] has joined #tunes <_ruiner_> hmmm...that was just car companies stomping out competition...the adapted the new thinking after tucker was out of the picture <_ruiner_> seat belts for example I'm going to try a poetical comparison :> We walk on the canyon made by foot of people preceding us, always walking via the same way without neither looking at the sides. Nor truely Ruiner, there's a lot of Tucker innovation they never adapted <_ruiner_> the point was they weren't afraid of new thinking, they were afraid of new (more advanced) competition Miel: can we avoid it when we share the same gene-pool? 02:20pm continuing my comparison : if one of us 'd like to change the common way of solving any problem (that is to choose a new way), he would cost him much more than following the others (because the canyon is too deep to be climbed) has the gene pool anything to to with that? <_ruiner_> I don't share your gene pool, I'm ummm....albino asian Ruiner is a 3 foot tall green alien oh wait, that IS your gene pool. j/k <_ruiner_> shhhhh! the FBI is listening! the FBI already knows but don't tell us, of course. <_ruiner_> hmmm...lets see if we can get some sig int organization after fare ok <_ruiner_> lol I don't think that genes deeply drive the way we're thinking. That'd be too much simple. <_ruiner_> hey fare, explain to me again how we militias are supposed to construct nuclear bombs out of vapor tunes code mibin: we are group animals.. we stick to the group, and that is a gene thing, developed over more years than I can count even if I had all day.. leaving the group is supposed to be tough. <_ruiner_> not true <_ruiner_> I tend to be a lone wolf in my day to day stuff...I avoid interaction with others in person fufie, sure, we are social animals <_ruiner_> apparently that means I'm supposed to have shot at my classmates in high school ruiner: there are exceptions.. wolves are also group animals, but sometimes you find lone wolves.. mibin: I think ruiner is a social animal by himself... 8) heh <_ruiner_> are you referring to my (extensive) pr0n collection? <_ruiner_> ;-p We can't make genes responsible of all our defaults :) the ````ystem'''' sorry, the ```System'' (with a capical) is guilty. we can make them responsible for several things, some good and some bad. and they are responsible for several things including group instincts which we share with the other animals in the zoo called Earth <_ruiner_> bull <_ruiner_> I make my decisions, not a bunch of arranged amino acids 02:30pm and what are you, but a bunch of small cells and amino acids and minerals and hopefully some vitamins, and water..? <_ruiner_> I buy into the romanticized notion that human beings have souls I agree. But the elaborate produces of our consciousness is not more attached to genes. It deals with neuron, not gene. I admit that personnality can inflect every thoughs, but it mostly deals with the past of our life, our environment and our paste life. <_ruiner_> I disagree...but I grow tired of this discussion... <_ruiner_> anybody here working on an os that isn't tunes? heh rethorical question miel: and first and foremost is (parts of) humanity's ability to reflect :) I'm amazed : you suggest both that IQ depends on genes ! I'm rather confuzed. * Miel/#TUNES perhaps didn't understand well. have I talked of iq? <_ruiner_> my question wasn't rhetorical Fufie : You spoke about way of thinking. we can tell those things are related, can't we ? As for me, it feels myself important to be carefull when using such middle-science trues. 02:40pm I was talking of instincts, not of ability to solve a limited sets of puzzles which people seem to think indicate intelligence -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- NetSplit: fontana.openprojects.net split from tolkien.openprojects.net [02:48pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [fontana.openprojects.net] I spoke about IQ-test as any arbitrary problem or contest which involve consciousness. Walking, recognizing a smile is related to instincts. While imagining words or pictures and linking them on the blackboard of your consciousness are not. -:- Netjoined: fontana.openprojects.net tolkien.openprojects.net -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn117.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes 02:50pm -:- SignOff zarq: #TUNES (One day sheep will rule the world) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp69.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes hmm heh 03:10pm * Miel/#TUNES is frighten. "frightened" : mmmm.... better. * Downix/#tunes hates X X? why? it needs to be re-designed for modern needs too much momentum tho to try for it why is that downix? mibin: Something I realized about open projects, if someone wants to re-impliment something in a smoother or faster method, people get angry because they'd be stepping on toes Downix: like? what are modern needs? heh ok the x api is bloated eihrul: Well, let's see... something EMBEDDABLE! but there are a lot of interfaces to it for programmers Nano-X eihrul: nano-X will never gain popularity linux will never gain popularity... X has popularity eithrul: linux is already enough popular and Linux is popular * eihrul/#tunes sighs. The ultimate APIs set should allow to build an application which would as more easy to use on a screen-phone, an ascii terminal, a X terminal, and even a voice-handled system :) i meant that linux wasn't popular to start Downix: you want something embeddable then besides what there is, you need to chuck $2000 for a QNX license or do it yourself eihrul: Well, I ment more that X is slowing down on me which is pissing me off how is X slowing you down? 03:20pm * Miel/#TUNES whishes he could open an windowing system on a "Minitel". eihrul: it's taking seconds to swap virtual screens so... that's not X11