IRC log started Sun Nov 28 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1128 -:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.131.113.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes Hey hey do u have unreal? Nope damn good game Hmm, cool the graphics kick ass fps? its slower than halflife err, that was a poor acronym, I ment is it a first person shooter? i am downloading the latest driver for my riva cuz it has bad glitches 12:10am yes it is it kicks halflifes butt What motherboard brands do you reccomend? I am looking at a dual p II, which abit doesn't make... yes they do They do? Its not listed under products well they make a dual socket 370 board I want a dual slot 1 i have an asus p2bd THe bp6 kicks ass, but I have decided I can't run celerys with smp slockets Hmm, So youare saying to go abit or asus? yes i would go with asus i have 5 asus boards tx97, 2 tx97e, p2b and p2bd Ever run any of these no namers? oh ya epox and amptron How was the epox? yer system will run half speed with the amptron and 75% with the epox -:- [NoMercy] [server@dyn208-28-52-161.win.mnsi.net] has joined #tunes How did you measure that? <[NoMercy]> anyone have an oss license notron norton with the amptron it was easy the system was visually slow Hmm, did it say what was bottle necking? its the motherboard they all had the exact parts the cards where moved from one board to the next Hmm What do they do to their boards that make the so slow? 12:20am -:- [NoMercy] [server@dyn208-28-52-161.win.mnsi.net] has left #tunes [] use cheap buffers Ah so Is the 820 chipset somthing I need? the amptron has its own chipset Yuck, offbrand chipset.... the 820 supports the 133mhz bus Does the PII? no the p3 600 and 633 do Hmm, I don't need that then the p3's higher than 633 dont use 133 Now, I need to decide onboard SCSI or no hmm my box will get 7fps in the games being released this xmas Heh Dual 550 is not enough, eh? im running the test to see how many fps i will be getting on next years games no, this is a single 450 my dual 550 doesnt run games cuz its linux Ah i have a feeling im gonna have a negative fps for next year Negitive fps... hmmm that is an interesting thoguht... _you_ display the frames for the computer! :) i think this treemark test is fake i think it was made by intel and nvidia to sell faster computers by giving ridiculously low scores what game will use 35000 polygons per frame? Heh The games that BRiX runs my riva can handle 6000 polygons per frame The k7 runs a 200Mhz bus, right? yes and no Uhhh since the fastest ram is 133mhz... 12:30am So the chip supports 200, but you can only run it at 133? yup Ok Where there ever any openPIC boards made? and p133 ram is 40% more than pc100 133 is expensiveo openPIC? Dualing k6s 1.66fps on next years games :) 12:40am Damnit! Nobody makes an openPIC board! The k6 supports it, buy no one implemnted it! Grrr Porque porque porque? Ohh! Whats this? damnit i installed the latest creative labs driver and unreal is still glitching 12:50am it thrashes the hard drive alot Get more ram What is slot 2? xeon and k7 is slot A Ah so 01:00am Oh tnx for the cursor code I see where mine was messed up now heh I keep using AX when I relly mean AL or AH Its annoying Or, not staing I only want a byte moved hahaha What? For code done in math class it was pretty good! 01:10am Did you konw you can dual regular pentiums? ya But not cyrix or amds because they are openPIC and noone makes an openPIC board 01:20am Hmm Got to go sleep -:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) 01:30am -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- smoke [smoke@16dyn180.delft.casema.net] has joined #tunes -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-157.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey all 06:10am hi what's up? 06:20am hm i'm trying to do some ocaml, but i have a book that explains caml and frankly i don't understand how to convert some things :) what thinks? hmm I'm mostly idle. About to try and turn Linux into a useable system because no other OS availible to me is modular enough w/o a performance loss smkl; well, i couldn't find the cons-keyword, which is used in an example.. 06:30am cons a b is probably just a::b smkl: let append l1 l2 = list_hom l2 cons l1;; i tried using ::, but that doesn't work nicely (here list_hom is defined as `let rec list_hom e f l = match l with [] -> e | (a::l) -> f a (list_hom e f l);; ') somehow i think it makes one argument out of `l2 :: l1' instead of passing :: as f in that case, you would need let cons a b = a::b doh, i should've thought of that myself :) smlk; how long have you been working with caml btw? hmm smoke: there's an append in the ocaml standard library -- UTSL about 2 years or so fare; i'm just learning :) i don't need to append anything practically :) smoke: let append l1 l2 = case l1 of [] -> l2 | h::t -> h::(append t l2) ;; fare: case == match,with ? yup my ocaml syntax is rusty * Downix/#tunes wishes he could find a decent extendable OS Downix: tunes? i heard tunes was a free reflective computing system at http://www.tunes.org or for programming languages what the internet is to networks or like flypaper for hallucinogenic programmers or discombobulated or obnubilated Fare: Tunes won't be ready in any kind of timeframe useful to me Linux is not the kind of OS I want Core's Clementine sounds like it could be how's core progressing on clementine? No clue It *sounds* about right tho 06:40am indexable, flexible, and most of all able to be tied right to my hardware it sure seems promising, yes Too bad I only talked to him once I would like to see the docs, the source if possible, to see how easy it would be to port Oh god, Brittany Spears is now of legal age Anyways Tunes is not an option, I need something able to be shipped by October 2001 And not just shipped, but have software ready for it what kind of software, if i may ask? At least 1 applications suite and some games it's for new hardware? yup i see smoke: clementine is progressing alright, except that it's not officially released yet Trying to keep things as easy for customers to switch as possible Fare: No responce via email. phone My next day off I'll call 06:50am * Downix/#tunes won't back off till he can check it out Of course I still have AlonzoTG's Sphere as an option, if he can get it through his head he does NOT need to licence every piece of technology in the world And worst case my own modified Linux kernel but I REALLY don't want to do that Linux just doesn't cut it So, has anything actually been done with Tunes yet? Or just with Arrow? * Downix/#tunes ponders What exactly is Linux, it's not a monolith kernel due to the modules, it's not a microkern because the modules don't talk to each other 07:00am it's a runtime extensible monolithic kernel ok What is Amiga then, it's semi a mono, semi a micro, and semi has no kernel at all I'd say it's a no-kernel but I don't know well enough It is a ton of library calls built into a massive executable which you can add yet more library calls to It's rather unique, especially since it's UNIX-derived * Downix/#tunes has a copy of AmigaOS 3.0's source, rather interesting object study BeOS is nice too Many nice OS ideas, but I want to have something unique, something special 07:10am Being really good at C++ is like being really good at using rocks to sharpen sticks. -- Thant Tessman lol Well, so far I have not found any high-level languages as flexible or as powerful as C, but I have not been looking REBOL looked interesting, but I can't get it to work 07:20am Also lacked a critical internet function, telnet Anyways was much too late-bound, too OS's are not my specialty Hardware is Yeah, REBOL if it came out in 1988 would have been killer but now... it's too hokey I feel Fare, have you studied the use of C as a hardware description language? 07:30am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-203-146.s400.tnt6.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes hey Al! AlonzoTG: You missed the video hardware discussion yesterday on #enoch ok, guess everyone is idle 07:40am C as hardware description? that's nuts. Downix: have you rather seen synchronous programming languages? ESTEREL? LUSTRE? etc... Someone's made a C library for just that purpose No I have not the Haskell guys are also doing hardware modelling with Haskell ok but that's not fit for complete design (yet) I'm doing complete design work whereas ESTEREL is just meant for design of circuits. (although it depends on having a good optimizing backend) (it can also dump C code, for simulation, if you prefer) Never seen it is it commercial? 08:00am I think ESTEREL is free software while LUSTRE is commercial; but don't take my word for it. rather search for it searching abi: no, ESTEREL is at http://www-sop.inria.fr/meije/esterel/esterel-eng.html okay, Fare. ok ouch, not free software, it seems let me see abi: ESTEREL is also a proprietary language for Synchronous Reactive Programming okay, Fare. Fare is free, just not open erm, Estarial so is LUSTRE, apparently abi: '(0 (1 2) (3 () ((4 5)) 6))) oops abi: LUSTRE is a synchronous reactive programming language at '(0 (1 2) (3 () ((4 5)) 6))) damn cut buffer! abi: no, LUSTRE is a synchronous reactive programming language at http://www-verimag.imag.fr/SYNCHRONE/lustre-english.html okay, Fare. * Fare/#Tunes hates X uh what? fare; so you're not using zenirc from emacs? :) X is poor smoke: I would if emacs was multiprogrammed downix; except for emacs - is there an alternative? but then I wouldn't be doing tunes, either fare; what do you mean with `multiprogrammed' ? smoke: berlin YAX downix; hm, i've never been very impressed with the berlin project nano-X I didn't say it was impressive, did I? GGI? GGI is, like, at http://www.ggi-project.org ggi has nothing to offer in this respect 08:10am it could if someone were to exploit it there's more to it than graphics alone smoke: multiprogramming is the ability to run multiple concurrent communicating programs at once. for instance, by multitasking fare; ah yes, that's something emacs surely lacks Honestly tho X is probably the best we've got downix; jup downix: 20 years of no progression :) (in this field) I know for my OS I need something better than X X sucks. better in what way? but it's best, indeed Fufie: Coherent appearance, more integrated with the platform forced coherent appearance is something i wouldn't appreciate appearance is irrelevant. The internal structure is what's important Fare: Appearance is very important for consumers. appearance can be done by theming, if the internal structure is ok screw consumers :) Fare: Very true. obviously there is already disagreement on how to improve ;) Fufie: Agree. Thing is, I know what most people want. * Fare/#Tunes drops Scheme, and teaches himself CL if all programs were to have the same appearance, that would mean a limitation of ease-of-use Fare: a wise choice :) downix; thing is, most people don't know what they want for themselves. smoke: Yes, but they know that they want something they can understand. that said, the target language will be a happy mix of Scheme, CL, ML, and more smoke: Same appearance between each other. THemes could make the system very flexible beyond that limitation downix; hm, are you sure you're not underestimating people? hum. When evaluating CL macros, what's the current environment, already? downix; don't get me wrong -- i don't even know What you know most people want :) smoke: Not at all. the environment is where the macro is used downix; it just sounds strange to me. it gets messy if the macro is in another package and uses symbols smoke: What I do understand is that 90% of people, roughly, want things to look close enough to each other than they don't need to re-learn how to work things just because they change programs -> keywords are a good thing 08:20am downix; may i correct that to be 90% of the frequently pc using people, being about 5% of `the people' :) Fufie: if I do side effects within a CL macro, in what environment does it takes place, and is that environment shared with evaluation? smoke: I'm not just talking in computers ya dork. * Fare/#Tunes hates Scheme's caricature of macros downix; most people use a car as happily as a toilet, both appearing completely different from eachother most of the time * Fare/#Tunes prefers first to car smoke: But they like cars that make sence * Fare/#Tunes won't use car unless doing low-level things. how about CDR then? smoke: Here's an example, my mothers Festiva and my Mustang have very different controls NOT-QUITE-SECOND ? downix; computers that look like eachother, indeed. that's what i meant with the limitations. only the steering wheel is the same place downix; s/computers/cars smoke: I ment the GUI smoke: Whenever I get into my mothers car or she gets in mine, we get confused as to where everything is downix; yes. and what i was trying to point out is that having but one gui is probably not the best solution * Fare/#Tunes does think CL lacks ML-like modules CL lacks modules smoke: Having more is not an option in my case. I want whatever I have to be themeable, but due to space limitations, one GUI is all we can fit into the default system Fufie: could you find time to update the CL review? I have done some updating.. did it yesterday the main tunes-page seems updated downix; and seperating the gui from the applications completely is no option either? smoke: That is an option, yes. But a standard toolkit must be issued, to keep things looking similar enough to prevent confusion. (Does not prevent after-market toolkits of course) afk.. bbl downix; so you basically need a gui api, not a windowing system? smoke: Pretty much. downix; are you planning on creating a completely new one or did you have one in mind? smoke: I would like something akin to the told AMigaOS. Enlightenment somewhat fits my needs, but it's reliance on X makes that a hard pill to swallow. downix; enlightenment is but a windowmanager, is it not? smoke: Right. Fufie: thanks downix; what about wings? smoke: wings? 08:30am downix: WINGs or so, the gui used by windowmaker, it's NeXT-ish downix; i know nothing about it myself downix; apart from it being small It's still a window manager I don't want to use X downix; no it's more of a gui, windowmaker is the wm, wings is a gui.. but it's probably based on X yes smoke: Windowmaker is an X window manager, I know, I use it myself downix; is it for wearable computers? smoke: You could make a wearable computer out of it. downix; then berlin is probably too big/bloated for it? smoke: More like Berlin would be too slow and quite useless for our "other" configuration * Fare/#Tunes is trying to determine a programming model for something like a Blu-calculus with a notion of linear domains. smoke: We need a setup where the main GUI can be by-passed for direct screen use downix; something like a telnet feature? smoke: Somewhat, but you still have full graphical control Downix: XFree86-DGA is meant to allow that downix; and a very teensy X server? Fare: I know that smoke: X isn't built very well IMHO and XF86 4.x is meant to supercede DGA with a new, incompatible, protocol yup X is not build; it is grown. s/ld/lt/ Fare: Good way to put it downix; it's somewhat `standard' though.. in presence of proprietary software, selection is done on freedom first, and design afterwards. smoke: I know. But I do not mind non-standard if I can gain what I need * Downix/#tunes nods proprietary software is the cause of bad design being standard. BLU?!?!?!?!?!? downix; what more/differences would you like to see ? yes, i meant to ask that too - what's blu-calculus? :) downix; i've been working on a gui myself for some time - that's why * AlonzoTG/#tunes just learned lambda!!! 08:40am smoke: embeddable, extendable, able to work with a very modular OS and very unusual hardware smoke: some kind of unification of pi-calculus and lambda-calculus; kind of like jocaml AlonzoTG cool * smoke/#tunes hopes jocaml is a typo PI CALCULUS?!??!?!?!?! downix; d'you have any concrete ideas for that already? smoke: Honestly, no. Something akin to Workbench, intuition engine basically. ATG: stuff for concurrent programming smoke: Something that takes full advantage to my hardware's design picalc is so low-level you must write in CPS; blucalculus does that cps implicitly for you when needed downix; and implementationwise? a bytecode protocol like X or something completely differnt? smoke: I don't care to be honest. I care about what my user sees downix; hm bytecode sucks smoke: the framework could be a pair of hampsters with crayons for all I care should be taken care of automatically by metaprograms (profiling metaprograms, even) * AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a laser guided flaming woodchuck at Fare smoke: idling? 08:50am downix; not at all! :) smoke: What does your GUI have to offer? downix; thinking, discussing two different things, learning caml, watching tv, reading the berlin website and doing some homework.. :) ok -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp159.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes downix; my gui has nothing concrete yet.. we tried implementing it in c/c++ and focused mostly on optimizing it for 486/pentiums smoke: Since I'm using MIPS wouldn't help me much downix; the main goal of the gui is to make good use of old hardware, next to being extendable to new targets smoke: that's what screen is for.... eihrul; hahaha :) i'm not joking man smoke: Does not sound quite like what I need then, since my video hardware does not work anything like VGA downix; the last few months we've been investigating highlevel languages to build gui components and applications with ok eihrul; the basic applications i want to run are a pixelpainting program and a soundtracker -- screen is only for textmode smoke: you have colored text... * Downix/#tunes sighs eihrul; grin hard working with unusual graphics systems when everyone thinks VGA is the end-all be-all formats like xpm can be edited in a text editor downix; i'm not thinking that at all :) we spent a great deal of time thinking of how to get rid of bitdepth and pixelsize dependencies smoke: So have I, but I worked on the hardware-end downix; did you come up with some nice new ideas then? eihrul; oh grrrrr! :) smoke: Plenty of them, but nothing like VGA downix; as long as there's a lot of hardware tricks and tweaks to find out, i'll buy one :) smoke: Plenty of them. downix; woo! :) om, /me just needs an DAC to spew video... I hope you havn't optomized out the 32 bit ramdac!!! =P DAC's aren't as efficient =\ How can that be? let's see, 400Mhz RAMDAC or 800Mhz RAMBUS.... 09:00am with the RAMDAC you end up with more overhead over our memory management system well you could draw about 12million pixels with that, my monitor only functions at 60 mhz... AlonzoTG: I could also render how many polygons, or power how many monitors? hmm... with one unit? with the PC you have to add a second card... Or even encode and decode video at the same time AlonzoTG: With one unit hmm... geeeperz! argh polygons!