IRC log started Thu Oct 21 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1021 bochs? bochs is probably a PC emulator at http://www.bochs.com that runs on win32, un*x, beos, mac, os/2 and amiga 12:20am -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (destroy what destroys you) -:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[06-070.006.popsite.net]) -:- Syntax [dma@03-140.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[03-140.006.popsite.net]) -:- fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- fire [no@209-68-229-141.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes hi lo fare: hello -:- fare is now known as Fare :D did you get my email? which? about the HLL nope. Lemme check my email :) 06:40am * Fare/#Tunes plays with his brand new P5/75... ... so fare? so far? did you read it? did not find it :( i think it was under the subject "HLL" hum. Wait. TUNES HLL 19991016 probably yup. I agree with it. ... uhhh that was a rather fake answer 06:50am well not really im glad you see things my way :)\ wow this is the first time i've looked at the HLL requirements and had the slightest idea what they meant well off to school i go -:- SignOff fire: #TUNES (Leaving) 07:00am -:- Syntax [dma@11-143.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial626.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes Hullo! Ayone want to help me come up with a low-level addressing scheme for built-in objects in QWIX? 08:10am -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial626.infolink.com.br]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial180.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (reboot, bbl) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!) -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi]) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from irc.linux.com [11:01am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net irc.linux.com -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from asimov.openprojects.net [12:05pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes -:- _ruiner_ [blah@ppp321.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp321.wi.centurytel.net]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us135.javanet.com] has joined #tunes h c f F a r e -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-089.m2-2.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes Anyone here at the moment? no fare and i Hehe :) I just noticed the message on Bespin about using SSH, which Cipher should I use (Blowfish or DES3) let it select the default 01:50pm Ok then, thanks :) Do you know which one is harder to crack (not that I'm paranoid or anything, I telnet as root into my box at home) no 02:00pm Beh: if you're interested, there are plenty of crypto-oriented web pages out there. I'm sure there are, just wondering if you knew off hand what he best one was. Beh: check out say the gnupg.org page to start with Ok, I'll check em, thanks :) :( -:- FareWell [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- FareWell [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has left #Tunes [] -:- water [water@tnt-10-88.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes beh! water! :) How the hell are ya! :) vacation rocks water: I'm still looking forward to the new arrows papers, are any completed yet? er uhh it'll take a little while the intro needs an overhaul, too Well, you're on vaction so don't start yet :) i have been working on theory, though, including coding -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us135.javanet.com]) the main problem is that my computers are MIA Where's they go? well, my laptop (with all sorts of papers on it) went in for repairs my desktop has a little data, but it's a linux box, and i don't have any gurus around to help work out problems -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us135.javanet.com] has joined #tunes even stranger, no linux boxes can log into my ISP. they're working on the problem, though water: What sorts of problems? mostly mounting issues scsi zip, win98 fat, ... 02:10pm water: Both are easy to do, from what I remember yeah, well, i hate learning linux by myself but that's not the issue right now Yeah, so did I. I'd hop on over and help you, but I'm north of 66 right now ;) "north of 66"? North of the 66th parallel... in a remote desolate region. Actually I'm only at about 42.7 longitude, but close enough btw, have you noticed #osdev? water: switch ISP? no well, soon when cable-modem service reaches seattle hehe A big town like that doesn't have cable modems yet? which will be soon, actually political problems water: Have you asked Tril to help you setup your Linux box yet? He lives close, and is quite good at it. no, i didn't want to bother someone who lives 90 miles away Oh... Sorry I thought he lived a little closer than that :) anyway, i've been reading up on lattice theory, which applies to arrow lattice theory? mathematics a lattice is a certain kind of ordered set 02:20pm they relate to algebras which relates to computations :) * Beholder/#tunes wishes he would have taken more math in school... or that his math teachers weren't morons... on or the other would have been fine. ;) water: "lattices"! reminds me Cousot's courses on abstract interpretation! i taught myself everything Fare: yep Beholder: a lattice is just a complete partial order i stopped learning math from school in the 9th grade water: Did you have any books on math theory? when does "did" refer to? oh, in 9th grade yeah well, my teacher inspired me to pick up books on topology and such * Fare/#Tunes 's dad is a math teacher, which helps Fare: you took a course by Cousot himself (themselves)? * Beholder/#tunes 's dad is a construction worker... he's a great guy, but couldn't teach me any advanced math I guess Well, I must go now, later all :) -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-089.m2-2.sub.ican.net] has left #tunes [] k 02:30pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-139-62.s316.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes water: sure water: he's teacher in ENS cool -:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp35.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[11-143.006.popsite.net]) 03:00pm hmm. i just commented on the mlist persistence discussion 03:10pm -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250090.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey pyro hello 03:30pm what's news? not much, just thought I'd stop in hmm you interested in arrow? maybe what's new? i've been playing with some smalltalk code for a lisp environment i'm considering opening up the dev i've got several basic things that have to get coded before it'll directly support arrow but i'll need help in working out the ideas, so i'm going to publish the goals in detail as well as the code, and we could discuss it on the mlist what do you think? ahh.. i've got too many projects already damn btw, have you noticed #osdev? but I'll keep an eye on things.. maybe something will jump out :) #osdev? great.. nobody there now? pyro! -:- hcf has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System || http://linuxfund.org/creditcard/ || have you noticed #osdev? a few thanks, hcf * Fare/#Tunes thinks he got the firewall working... although maybe not... water: u still gonna use #modtunes? yeah, when people want to use it, or i think it needs to be used 03:40pm -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [03:42pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes wb -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250090.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 03:50pm -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from asimov.openprojects.net [04:38pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net asimov.openprojects.net -:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[216-164-139-62.s316.tnt5.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- air [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes * hcf/#tunes is away: (afk) -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-089.m2-2.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes wb! Thanks :) I saw your reply to the current thread in the Tunes discussion. I agree with you. thanks i've got another one i'm writing right now and, yes, i'm pissed :) I can tell i need good programmers who really want tunes to happen Or people who are focused on producing a concrete design yes, and don't have hang-ups about not having the os before the tunes Yeah, most complex systems need to be prototyped before they are put into production (universal rule for industry and business I guess) I guess there is a divide betweeen the people who want something better now, and thoese who want something good later. not exactly, imo You think they both have the same goals? no, i think the divide is different 05:00pm conservative, liberal? :) maybe if you switched "better" with "good" in that sentence Ahh, ok then. water: so patient, impatient well, i believe the impatient ones are not impatient for tunes at all wait for the email Hehe... I have 4 apps open in Windows and I'm sitting at 87.5 megs of memory allocated... damn water: I think it still takes about 10 min after you send for it to propagte to the entire list (I'm pretty sure I'm last, or have the slowest server ;) yeah i know i'll let you know when it's on the way ok :) 05:10pm -:- Syntax [dma@03-127.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us135.javanet.com]) -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (changing servers) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250090.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-10-88.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@tnt-9-80.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes damn win98 wb hehe the email is on its way Must be a long one :) if only my isp would connect properly with linux boxes Never heard of the problem. My ISP doesn't seem to have problems with any connections (uses CHAP authentication) 05:30pm mine uses pap brb Uses PAP and Linux won't connect? Wow, that is wierd yeah they've tried it with several distros, too FreeBSD? somebody said FreeBSD was like BSD, but comes with free beer or the best free Unix clone for the PC or more like a real unix than that useless hack known as Linux i don't recall y/join #osdev Download the Root and Boot disks for FreeBSD and try. maybe later 05:40pm Ahh, I guess your just lack a sense of adventure ;) no, i'm overworked as it is with computers i want them to "just work" i need someone to make them work for me, so that i can concentrate on other issues That's why I stopped using Linux ;) Yeah, you need your own techie ;) i should probably buy a $200 machine with Be on it and I just grabbed the new freebsd :) water: Yep, that would work too Linux has gotten too fragmented pyro: Kewl, how do you like it? I haven't installed it yet, but I'm in 2.2.8 and I like it it doesn't give me unexplained segfaults like u-know-what pyro: 2.2.8? Ick :) pyro: Hehe, yeah I know the feeling :) pyro: You'll like the 3.3 better cool I'm gonna go install it now.. later.. pyro: As long as you got 3.3 not 4.0 (4.0 is still experimental, not exactly stable) pyro: Enjoy :) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250090.clarityconnect.net] has left #tunes [] well, my email is out it got to me, so soon i should see a flame frm Bill Tanksley water: Yep, I'm trying to get it right now, but GF is downloading MP3's and mail comes in very slow ;) water: It seems you and him have opposing views... or both of you like flaming each other ;) i can't believe how long i've put up with listening to the idiotic ides of tunesers Is that a general statement or directed toward a portion of the group? toward almost all of the group say, 98% 05:50pm Reading your mail at the momement it's pretty much guaranteed to get people to flame Yeah, anything that goes against the grain will get flamed, thats normal. that's a bit optimistic lol thanks, eihrul i think i've just insulted everybody, but i hardly care, because they're worthless to Tunes and Arrow considering i'm the guy doing most of the tunes thinking and nearly all of the research how so? there are a great many tunes-spawned systems well, for example, i have grok'd about 1.6gb of postscript, hundreds of web sites for languages etc, and dozens of books on theory just because they do not conform to your ideas of tunes does not make them wholly useless well, wise one, say that again when you grok my paper grok? and i *do* know exactly what tunes is i've grokked your paper rubbish exaplin it to me, then s/exaplin/explain * Beholder/#tunes feels inadequate because he only reads things... never grok'ed ;) i never said i grokked it well enough to explain it then you don't grok it considering you had a hard enough time explaining it to others as well :) understanding something is only useful if you can share that knowledge IIRC you had problems in that respect before yes, i did water: if u understand it then u should be able to easily make others understand the problem is that i am a limited-bandwidth being i am learning things too quickly to passs the ideas on without help i need help! the problem is that coders are addicted to their ways, so they think they want tunes, when they really want "more features" tunes is not about more features, it's about *unifying* them all you've specified for help is a working arrow system which does not include sharing knowledge AFAIK 06:00pm yes it does manipulating information is what arrow is about, and that includes knowledge that's not what i meant... assuming you've read 1.6gb of postscript, hundreds of web sites, and many many books on theory... -:- fire [dave@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes most people will have not on specifically that hello * Beholder/#tunes remembers Arrows as a unified system of interconnected pieces of information that form a network of usable peices of information. Like an expert system, but better. eihrul: huh? so just expecting them to fire off a working arrow system is not plausable if you can't even with all that i haven't outlined the coding goals i mean, i haven't posted them it *is* plausible * fire/#tunes just read water's post like he sees everyone else has prove it what? in logic? nah, in implementation sure, but it'll take time there are a few basic things that have to be coded like reifying environments as frames/graphs and supporting "arrow primitives" water: at seems as though the arrow project is mobilizing...am i right? i am mobilizing it, yes wowsers remember that right now i am the entire development team s/development/design well, both i do code the problem is that the next arrow intro iteration will have to be at least 100 pages most likely 200-300 hopefully more descriptive for all those pages :) yep that's what most of the pages will be.. descriptions the basic ideas are there and a few TODO: lines well, the intro should be an intro wow, talking hi Zhivago other papers will cover development and theory water: I suspect you need to draw some pictures lol yes water: without pictures its just a mumble of jargon but i don't have good tools for it, because my linux box is crippled and i have no guru to help 06:10pm i need a linux guru on site dot might be useful for graphng, although it doesn't do cycles as well as I'd like however it should be possible to use gimp ro something to freehand a simple graph or two cool! Bill Tanksley didn't flame! yeah! * eihrul/#tunes tries to remember the name of the vector drawing program he saw recently.... sorry xfig, that was it gimp is terrible heh isn't bill like a big regular on comp.lang.forth? er something i think i'll just use LaTeX water: well, use something better, like xpaint :) water: ok, just as long as it gets done yeah, well, once again i need someone to help me on site my initial reaction to something is that if you can't say it stupid, then ther'es probably something conceptually wrong with it well, there's gyre but I don't know how well developed that is yet yeah, well i thought up the idea when i was 15, and everyone thought it was a cool idea or is it gyve I forget but being able to convince someone that you have a good idea is nothing like implementing it if it isn't like anything else well, you need some concrete examples a small program implemented arrowly yeah, well can you think of an analogue for arrow or tunes? or atleast a plausable description of one water: what exactly is an arrow in the arrow system? data and control-flow graphs are one hmm, tunes is easy, since I've been working with reflection for a long time lisp is another what product for reflection? yeah, I'm having trouble seeing the difference between lisp and arrows to be honest water: um, the concept :) mostly the purpose of the cons cell and the fact that arrow deals with issues that programmers don't address like? like higher-order infinities, patterns in data-structures, tightening the reflective loop user-interface, abstract ontologies um, programmers do deal with those issues dealing with *actual* symbolic manipulation instead of programmatic yeah, but the system itself doesn't hmm, what'sa a non-actual symbol? a lisp token what's non-actual about it? * water/#tunes suggests Zhivago check out the math-theoretic application of category theory and representation theory it's a representation i mean the formal mathematical kind I suggest that if you understand this yoruself, you express it sensibly 06:20pm well, tunes members have spewed ignorance at me for far too long water: well, now you're spewing jarginism at me i can't explain it in a few words water: which is the same thing, only more high falutin water: ok, then write a simple program, such as hello-world because its implicit in our own language arrow is not a programming language! but some use of the language is more conducive to ambiguity than other use :) water: ok, this might explain some of the difficulties I'm having as grasping it as a programming language doing a "hello world" would be making a representation of an arrow program water: what is arrow then if not a programing langauge? it's a framework water: what does arrow do for me? water: what can I use it for? it's not first-order, and you can't make it into one it makes your information re-usable for arbitrary semantics ok, well, this sounds interesting can you give me a concrete example of an application? that's why i pcked arrows... it's easy to pick away semantics sure... if you have a diagram of a computer network, you can abstract the connection information and the performance information and place it into the context of, say, a linear problem-solving framework * water/#tunes thinks ok, so its a graphing tool. kinda, but it doesn't have to be visualizable per se that's ok, I don't require visualisation language syntax forms a graph, too even a semantic system yes, I explint this for security at a fine grain, with little cost * fire/#tunes is away: (Auto-Away after 10 mins) [BX-MsgLog On] k so I'm familiar with graphing but I still don't have a clear picture of what arrows do for me well, the system builds all of its environments from graphs what environments are we tralking about? which is where the reflection part comes into play hmm I still don't haev a concrete example to reference "the user experience" = environment? too vague and makes it sound like a programming langauge again well, i like the idea of considering the user-interface as a single thing if that's the case, then I should be able to do hello world well, yes, but "how it would be done" would vary on the environment chosen / presented 06:30pm can you give a simple example? so describe an example environment so you can describe a sanmple hello world a trivial case is probably adequate -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-80.tscnet.net]) oops, he exploded :) how, convenient -:- _water [water@tnt-9-80.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes bad isp <_water> i can say this because specifying semantics in arrow can be done to great detail and variability <_water> my connection to the isp didn't drop, though just pick one <_water> and with arrow you don't emulate, you implement if you can't do something so simple, then how we cna consider this useful? <_water> but you can well, do it :) -:- SignOff _water: #TUNES (Read error to _water[tnt-9-80.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer) -:- water [water@207.227.184.80] has joined #tunes * eihrul/#tunes waits. rp: *any* paradigm this is weird water: if it can be implemnted, then give us an example i'm lagged sure.... 06:40pm ...? zero -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[207.227.184.80]) there's more than one kind of lag Zhivago: conspiracy or coincidence? -:- water [water@207.227.184.80] has joined #tunes zh: How about this as an example: To make "hello world" program. You'd first have to have the ontonology for the architecture you are working on, then you have to have another ontonology for the interface you wish to use (ie. text screen). Then you could create a language that interfaces with text screen, then you make the program in the language. But it doesn't stop there, the advantage of arrows is the ability to redirect any arrow to anyt ping eihrul: hmm, dunno, but he's written a long paper, so I assume he's put some actual effort into this how's that wat? beholder: that's fine, I'll take a trivial one beh: yeah that works water: so deliver one :) Zh: More or less you're creating a completly dynamicly changable environment where anything can go anywhere, and anything can come from anywhere, assuming the logic works. beholder: that's fine, now giveme one of these things to look at well, a good ontology for the hardware is a functional description of it... functions have direct representations as graphs i'm working on it, for crying out loud! wateR: heh, fair enough, I'll grab a shower then :) back in 15 water: you can stick it on the front of that paper :) water: as well :) Zh: Don't you see how much work it takes to produce something meaningful, even after making the "engine". It will happen, but it won't be tommorow :) whew. no more lag :)