IRC log started Tue Oct 19 00:00:01 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1019
<Zhivago> hmm, oh, pondering how to best move the op-codes into the lisp layer
<water> opcodes for what?
<Zhivago> x86
<water> hmm
<water> i just read a book that addresses the basics of that issue
<Zhivago> which?
<water> "the structure and interpretation of computer programs"
<water> mit press
<Zhivago> oh, SICP
<water> yeah
<Zhivago> well, this is in the context of I have an assembler (written in lisp) and a compiler (written in lisp)
<Zhivago> and providing the bridge, but there are implications for the register allocator
<water> yeah, i see
<water> sorry, i'm working on my own problem
<Zhivago> that'sok, I didn't expect an answer :)
12:10am
<Fare> hum
<water> hey
<Fare> Gakuk!
<Fare> isn't it a tad late?
<water> Yablutsk! :)
<water> i'm on vacation
<Fare> oh
<water> and it's never too late to code ;)
<Fare> when will you be free?
<Fare> from the navy?
<water> bleh... 2yrs, 5 months
<water> but that's ok, because i'm saving and investing cash, and should have my project fairly well underway
* water/#tunes crosses his fingers
* Fare/#Tunes wishes good luck
<water> well, i've been working out the design of my primitives
<Zhivago> what are you doing?
<water> me? working on arrow
<Zhivago> arrow?
<abi> somebody said arrow was a homo-iconic information manipulation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
<water> thanks, abi
<abi> water: sure thing
12:20am
<water> it's really wierd writing primitives that only support arrows and graphs
<Zhivago> hmm, they sound like cons blocks
<water> definitely not like writing a lisp vm with a stack or two and mostly arithmetic
<water> yeah, arrows are like cons cells
<Zhivago> hmm, why bother witha  VM?
<water> er... it's not a bytecode machine, if that's what you mean
<water> it's a bunch of smalltalk classes
<Fare> what kind of primitives gives that?
<water> it gives smalltalk code that act as arrow and graph objects
<Zhivago> hmm, since the arrows naturally consturct graphs, (as do cons blocks), do you distinguish between the two?
<water> not really
<Zhivago> good, because that would be silly then :)
<water> but using the word 'arrow' allows arrow logic to come into play
<water> which allows me to treat arbitrary graphs as logical frames
12:30am
<Zhivago> hmm, I'm trying to see what you're doing here apart from re-inventing lisp
<water> well, the arrow idea just doesn't work the same, throwing around frames and such, and dealing with infinite structures all the time
<Zhivago> well, what is a frame here?
<water> any collection of arrows, formally
<water> no limit on cardinality
<Zhivago> ok, so a frame is a graph, which is just a set of arrows
<Zhivago> which ends up being the same as any lisp structure formed from cons blocks
<water> yep, but arrow logic occurs within the frame
<Zhivago> for example?
<water> reflective arrow logic allows you to move in and out of the frame, perspective-wise
<Zhivago> ok, so like environments
<water> well, arrow logic evaluates predicates at arrows, which allows introduction of operators I,R,C
<water> IRC= identity, reverse, composition
<water> so you have a transition logic
<Zhivago> ok, I'll have a read though that paper later
<Zhivago> although it has some bad html in it
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-17.tscnet.net])
-:- _water [water@tnt-9-190.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<_water> darn it
<_water> sorry, i was cut off
<Zhivago> > ok, I'll have a read though that paper later
<Zhivago> > although it has some bad html in it
<_water> yeah, it was automatic output of M$ wrod
<_water> s/wrod/word
-:- _water is now known as water
12:40am
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
* Fare/#Tunes is in conference
<water> i don't care what anyone says... pagans are just as silly as christians
01:30am
-:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- NetSplit: carter.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [01:55am]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [carter.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: carter.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net
-:- water [water@tnt-9-190.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net
-:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
-:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Tril] by clarke.openprojects.net
-:- NetSplit: carter.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:06am]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [carter.openprojects.net]
-:- NetSplit: clarke.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [02:06am]
-:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [clarke.openprojects.net]
-:- Netjoined: clarke.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net
-:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
-:- ServerMode/#tunes [+o Tril] by clarke.openprojects.net
-:- Netjoined: carter.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net
-:- water [water@tnt-9-190.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp413.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
!irq:*! anyone still awake, look at the topic in #chat, its hilarious
!Glitch:*! What's the whole thing say?
!Glitch:*! Heheheh.  Some folks...
!Bhaal:*! *shakes head* Some people :)
!irq:*! heh
<eihrul> indeed
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp413.wi.centurytel.net])
-:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[05-039.006.popsite.net])
03:20am
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial205.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> Shalom!
<Kaufmann> Anyone want to create a small reflective computing system to run on top of a MMIX emulator?
<Kaufmann> I know I do
* Kaufmann/#tunes pokes
>>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial205.infolink.com.br] requested PING 940334405 from #tunes
05:00am
<Kaufmann> Oh well.
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!)
05:10am
-:- Syntax [dma@09-062.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes
-:- Zhivago [brian@th.merddin.com.au] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[09-062.006.popsite.net])
-:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-129-58.s312.tnt1.lnhva.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes
-:- Syntax [dma@09-046.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial723.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> Anyone?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a flaming woodchuck at Kaufmann
* Kaufmann/#tunes ducks just in time
08:10am
<Kaufmann> Hey, wanna do something fun?
-:- AlonzoTG has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: new BIOS hacking project at users.erols.com/alangrimes/ under the OS projeckt.
<AlonzoTG> wut?
<Kaufmann> I want to write a small reflective operating system for Knuth's MMIX machine (emulated under whatever... prolly end up as C code)
<AlonzoTG> or get a FPGA and actually implement it. =P
<Kaufmann> ouch
<Kaufmann> that sounds really really painful
<Kaufmann> not to mention expensive :)
<Kaufmann> But I think it'll end up being very good, not to mention small
<AlonzoTG> yes just throw a FPGA on a PCI card and boot it up... then use a linux driver to talk to it.
<Kaufmann> given that 1) all that the OS should provide is support for some language and a reflection mechanism, and 2) the MMIX instruction set provides a whole lot of very handy operations
<Kaufmann> Alonzo, LOL
08:20am
<Kaufmann> I'm going away again.
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!)
08:30am
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us643.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[09-046.006.popsite.net])
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial758.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> Shalom again
10:40am
* Kaufmann/#tunes pokes people
<Kaufmann> Anyone alive?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a flaming woodchuck at Kaufmann
* Kaufmann/#tunes once again ducks successfully
<Kaufmann> So what's up?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes uses a mass driver to shoot the flaming woodchuck at Kaufmann.
<AlonzoTG> At 9/10ths the speed of lite
* Kaufmann/#tunes goes at 91/100ths of the speed of light, thereby managing to keep a safe distance
<Kaufmann> in my brand new Enterprise class ship
<AlonzoTG> heh
<AlonzoTG> Topique?
<Kaufmann> uh?
<AlonzoTG> Whatchyawannatalkabout?
* AlonzoTG/#tunes is getting my fourth soundcard....
<AlonzoTG> my first was a USED AD-LIB! - the ultimate gaming experience.
<AlonzoTG> man that card was nice.
<AlonzoTG> my second was a MVPAS16 wich eventually failed...
<AlonzoTG> this ABSOLUT PIECE OF ROTTEN TURD CREATIVE LABS JUNK....
<AlonzoTG> I HATE CREATIVE LABS.
<Kaufmann> abi, creative labs?
<abi> no idea, kaufmann
<AlonzoTG> THEY ARE THE WORST!!!!!
<Kaufmann> abi, creative labs suck... majorly
<AlonzoTG> Creativelabs is the worst hardware manufacturer in the world
<Kaufmann> Urhm
<Kaufmann> abi, creative labs is the worst hardware manufacturer in the world
<AlonzoTG> Anyway,
<Kaufmann> Well, I'm sticking with my iCrap's little sound system... + headphones
<AlonzoTG> I'm getting a new one which I hope will fiks all this crap.
<Kaufmann> Oh well
10:50am
<Kaufmann> So I've been thinking about this MMIX OS thing
<AlonzoTG> yes?
<Kaufmann> Well, have you read the MMIX fascicle?
<AlonzoTG> nopers.
<Kaufmann> The MMIX instruction set is very beautiful and compact. But Knuth goes ahead and defines an OS to go along with it, called NNIX, which is obviously designed with the express purpose of allowing easy implementation of basic OS features on a MMIX emulator. That is to say, it's basically a toy OS.
<Kaufmann> So I want to write a MMIX-specific OS that, while small, will feature enough reflective features that it won't have to be just a toy
<AlonzoTG> o
<Kaufmann> ?
* Kaufmann/#tunes pokes Alonzo
<Kaufmann> Have you died?
<Kaufmann> When did the Apple II come out?
11:00am
<AlonzoTG> 1978
<Kaufmann> 77
<Kaufmann> already found it
11:10am
<Kaufmann> So what do you think?
* Kaufmann/#tunes pokes Al once again
11:20am
* AlonzoTG/#tunes slaps Kaufmann around a bit with a large trout
-:- water [water@tnt-10-164.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hey all
* AlonzoTG/#tunes hurls a flaming woodchuck at water
<AlonzoTG> water!
<AlonzoTG> =)
<AlonzoTG> Long time no bug!
<AlonzoTG> =P
<water> yeah
<Kaufmann> Hey water
<Kaufmann> water, what do you think about this?
<water> hey kauf
<AlonzoTG> my fucking soundcard is picking up RF
<Kaufmann> <QUOTE>
<Kaufmann> The MMIX instruction set is very beautiful and compact. But Knuth goes ahead and defines an OS to go along with it, called NNIX, which is obviously designed with the express purpose of allowing easy implementation of basic OS features on a MMIX emulator. That is to say, it's basically a toy OS.
<Kaufmann> So I want to write a MMIX-specific OS that, while small, will feature enough reflective features that it won't have to be just a toy
<Kaufmann> </QUOTE>
<water> who said that?
<Kaufmann> moi
<water> ah
<Kaufmann> ah?
<water> sounds interesting, but what language would you code it in? what would you do with it?
<Kaufmann> "ah" is a very ambiguous response :)
<water> and what kind of reflective features would this os have?
<Kaufmann> language => well, there's little sense in coding an emulator in anything other than a LLL... so probably I'd end up with C (unless I could figure out how to make it work with FORTH, which may not be possible)
<AlonzoTG> http://www.kaitek.com/pcipro.html   < slap your fpga on THIS!!!!
<water> but a forth interpreter can be very small
<Kaufmann> water, yes, but it'd add yet another layer to the model
<Kaufmann> Which is currently   Hardware <-> OS <-> MMIXer <-> QWIX <-> QWIX apps
-:- Syntax [dma@02-102.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes
<Kaufmann> QWIX, by the way, is a provisory name for the OS project
<water> QWIX?
<water> well, you have a MMIXer, right?
11:40am
<Kaufmann> QWick MMIX OS... not very good, eh? ;)
<water> heh
<water> it still *sounds* like a toy
<Kaufmann> water, no... that's the first issue, getting one
<water> i'm sure that *someone* has coded a good MIX emulator that could be adapted
<Kaufmann> Well, it won't /look/ like a toy when the project's done ;)
<water> and if Knuth's MMIX spec is available, i'm sure there's someone who's written an emulator
<Kaufmann> water, I think MMIX is much too different from MIX for an adaptation to be better than a simple complete rewrite
<Kaufmann> as for the spec, I looked for an emulator, but didn't find one
<water> well, just adapt the MIX one, then
<water> or some similar one
<Kaufmann> Now back to your questions... what I would do with it => teach advanced CS courses in a technical university :) Seriously, I have no idea, but it seems like a fun project anyway.
<AlonzoTG> http://www-elec.enst.fr/fiches/stages/hauradou/
<water> well, it probably would help someone's cs course
<water> atg: *finally* an interesting url :)
<AlonzoTG> ?
<Kaufmann> reflective features => well, basically everything... it'll come up with an adequate OO HLL specification, and integrate the language implementation and OS into one, making the components of the OS available as primitive objects. i.e., big flexibility
<water> atg: thanks for the url
<water> kauf: why not just port squeakOS to it? :)
<Kaufmann> The next step, of course, is to make the internal workings of the MMIXer itself available to the QWIX apps... i.e., virtual FPGA :)
<water> k
<Kaufmann> water, I actually considered doing that... Smalltalk was (is) my HLL of choice for this project... but I have conceptual problems with Squeak
<water> with the language or what?
<Kaufmann> The whole thing... something just feels wrong with it, but I can't really tell what
* water/#tunes thinks "end-user" programming doesn't appeal to Kaufmann :)
11:50am
<water> actually, the language isn't great, but it's better than most
<Kaufmann> Definitely
<water> it would be nice if they could move from smalltalk to a self-like language
<water> or something similar
<Kaufmann> I've seen some references to Self, but never looked into it. What is it like?
<water> well, there are objects, but no classes. instead prototyping allows modification of behavior (for subclassing) and data (functions and data-inheritance)
<water> and variable access is implicit: you always have to access them via a primitive, instead of being able to say "x := 4" you say "self x: 4"
<Kaufmann> so subclassing becomes just a special case of object manipulation? I have been playing with this idea for the object system of yet another project of mine
<water> yeah
<water> there are other languages like this, e.g. omega and newtonscript
<Kaufmann> water, I didn't understand that... self x: 4 ?
<water> yeah, the only thing you can do to change an object's state is to have it send itself a message
<water> have you even tried smalltalk programming?
<Kaufmann> oic, I just didn't understand that it was a message
<water> oh
<Kaufmann> Well, I gotta go now... I'll be back eventually :)
<water> k
<Kaufmann> I'll look into self
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (speak to me at rnedal@olimpo.com.br . "Jesus would make a good main character for a Seinfeld spinoff" - Amber << Well, it got my attention... coming soon, the pilot episode of BEN YOSSEF! Sundays at Atheist News Network!)
12:00pm
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp242.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
<water> hi ruiner
<_ruiner_> hello
<_ruiner_> or as the religious zealots say, heaven-o
<water> heh
<_ruiner_> it really pisses me off when people say that to me
<_ruiner_> anyhow......
<_ruiner_> whats up?
<water> working on arrow and reading the news
<_ruiner_> ah...
12:10pm
-:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (bbiafCenturies...)
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for _ruiner_[ppp242.wi.centurytel.net])
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (User abort with 5 Ctrl-C's)
-:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes
<water> wb
01:00pm
<smkl> hello water
<water> hey
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us643.javanet.com])
01:10pm
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us637.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
* Fare/#Tunes is back
* Fare/#Tunes forgot his transceiver a few huundred kilometers away
<water> heh
* Fare/#Tunes relearns the joys of PLIP
<water> er.. plip?
* water/#tunes forgets
<water> well, i relearned sicp recently
<Fare> PLIP: parallel line IP
<water> ah
* Fare/#Tunes considers hacking a little bit of ABCL/R2
<Fare> (as a training in meta-level programming)
<water> i have my hands full re-working this lisp environment for arrow
<water> the author was japanese, so the comments and docs are terrible
02:00pm
<water> at least smalltalk makes code mods pretty simple to work through
02:10pm
<Fare> what code are you starting from?
<water> it's a small lisp environment with bytecode compiler in squeak
<Fare> oh
<water> and a windowed interface
<Fare> lispy or schemy?
<water> lispy
<Fare> good
<water> yeah, i just checked... no define or let etc
<water> the initial environment is extremely small
<water> all the math is there, withthe basic lisp functions
02:20pm
<Fare> defun, setq, mapcar, etc?
<water> yep
02:40pm
-:- Fare is now known as Fare3053
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-10-164.tscnet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp26.lvdi.net])
-:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp43.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
!ChanServ:*! lilo used GETPASS on channel #vasupport
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us637.javanet.com])
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us122.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial761.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes
<Kaufmann> A-fucking-MEN!!!! I finally found a free news server with USENET access!
<Kaufmann> Now I'm free from Deja.com!
05:40pm
-:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial761.infolink.com.br])
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp293.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp293.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> anybody got the homepage for nasm?
<_ruiner_> abi: nasm?
<abi> nasm is at http://www.cryogen.com/nasm or at http://www.erols.com/johnfine/
07:00pm
-:- water [water@tnt-9-195.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> greetings water
<water> hey
<_ruiner_> whats shaking?
<water> i'm on vacation, so i'm concentrating very hard on relaxing, and arrow code, in that order :)
<_ruiner_> ah...
<_ruiner_> relaxing huh? does that mean you'd be up to a game of starcraft?
<water> well, rts isn't my cup of tea
<water> mostly reading and going for walks and thinking
<_ruiner_> bah! you sound like an old woman
<water> heh
<water> well, my job is stressful
<_ruiner_> sorry to all the old ladies in here, you know I didn't mean it fare
<water> and i *do* play video games
<_ruiner_> stressful jobs are for the underclass
<water> well, i'm hiding out there
<water> btw, my reading material is mostly advanced math and programming
-:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[02-102.006.popsite.net])
<water> phd thesises, tech manuals, math. theory
<_ruiner_> heh heh heh
<_ruiner_> I got pretty mad about my lack of programming output lately
<_ruiner_> since I haven't written anything since I last had class...which was a year ago
<_ruiner_> so I decided to sit down and make an irc client...not too difficult...just something functional that looks nice
<water> that's too bad
<_ruiner_> so....I designed it
<_ruiner_> drew up what the interface should look like
<water> hey, write a better one for Squeak! :)
<water> it could use one
<_ruiner_> sat down in front of my computer.....and played starcraft
07:20pm
<_ruiner_> I'm pretty cheesed at myself...
<_ruiner_> its hard though....I've constantly got people coming over and bugging me to play nintendo or go drinking and crap..
<water> why are you on #tunes if you want to code, though? :)
<_ruiner_> or I turn into a snuss and hop online and chat *ahem*
<_ruiner_> is that a swipe at the tunes project team?
<water> isn't it? :)
<_ruiner_> you're pretty cool
<water> bah!
<_ruiner_> personally I don't think tunes has much of a future....but thats just my opinion
<water> what about arrow? :)
<_ruiner_> don't know much about it
<water> maybe if i get this interpreter working..
<_ruiner_> look at what tunes is now...and look at what they say tunes will be....and look at the rate that they're achieving it
<_ruiner_> seems like a lot of talk to me....and no results
<water> all they have to do is write a good reflective lisp and boot it
<_ruiner_> maybe you should let them in on that secret
<water> but i'm too lazy :)
<_ruiner_> heh heh
<_ruiner_> have you done any windows programming?
<water> not in c
<_ruiner_> damn
<_ruiner_> I wanted your opinion on portability between os's in c
<_ruiner_> namely, Be, linux, and win
-:- _water [water@tnt-9-195.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> wb
<_water> that was weird
<_water> porting c is *terrible*
<_ruiner_> I wanted your opinion on portability between os's in c
<_ruiner_> namely, Be, linux, and win
<_ruiner_> hmmm.....
<_water> squeak runs on all of them
<_water> :)
<_water> porting squeak smalltalk code is trivial
<_ruiner_> actually, the core part of the program would port perfectly in c...its the interaction with the os and hardware that would be nasty
<_ruiner_> correct?
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-195.tscnet.net])
<_water> well, considering that 32-bit architectures are the same, sure
-:- _water is now known as water
<_ruiner_> have you heard much about the new 64 bit processor that amd is coming out with?
<_ruiner_> it was on slashdot a week or so ago
07:30pm
<water> haven't followed it.... not interested
-:- Syntax [dma@01-047.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes
<_ruiner_> I think I can talk some chicks into going out and looking for a y2k compliant refrigerator
<_ruiner_> that'd be good for some ha ha's
<water> uhh
<_ruiner_> "no really, this fridge is pre 1997, its not y2k compliant...you need to go get a new one"
<water> btw, why are you on #tunes?
<_ruiner_> heh heh.....
<_ruiner_> I was/am interested in os development
* water/#tunes recommends #osdev
<_ruiner_> trying to get rid of me?
<water> ;)
<_ruiner_> that isn't a denial...
<_ruiner_> just made that up huh?
<water> sure
-:- lar1 [lar1@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
<_ruiner_> greetings lar
-:- water has changed the topic on channel #tunes to: Free Reflective Computing System (http://www.tunes.org/); OS-Developers are invited to #OsDev
-:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (Read error to Tril[bespin.dhs.org]: EOF from client)
<lar1> _ruiner_ Water is just trying to get rid of you ;)
07:40pm
<water> abi arrow?
<abi> arrow is a homo-iconic information manipulation system intended to support programming and human languages in the way that Tunes should. at http://www.tunes.org/papers/Arrow/, http://www.tunes.org/~water/
07:50pm
-:- SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us146.javanet.com] has joined #tunes
<water> hey hcf
<hcf> hey water
<water> notice the new #osdev
<water> ;)
08:10pm
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[tnt-9-195.tscnet.net]: EOF from client)
-:- water [water@tnt-9-195.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<water> people often say how much arrow seems like a lisp
-:- _ruiner_ is now known as bbl_ruiner_
<water> which makes it just that satisfying that it's so difficult to adapt this lisp interpreter to handle arrow
08:20pm
<eihrul> does not prove they are necessarily different
<water> why not, wise programmer? :)
<eihrul> give me a moment to think of an excuse
<eihrul> okay, i can't think of one, you win
<water> heh
<eihrul> well, there is one involving BASIC
<water> ArrowInterpreter fullOpen.
<water> doh!
<eihrul> there are a million different versions of the language
<water> wrong window :)
<eihrul> all offering nearly similar functionality
<eihrul> but none of them are compatable or able to synthesize another
<water> but basic is very low-level
<eihrul> due to lack of any real functionality in the language itself, despite its low-level-ness
<water> lisp variants all reduce to lisp
<eihrul> can arrow?
<water> not very easily at all
<eihrul> yes or no :)
<water> well, arrow isn't just a program
<water> your head participates as well... the entire process is arrow
<eihrul> how is that any different from thinking in lisp?
<water> lisp doesn't work with your thoughts
<eihrul> how can you prove arrow does?
<water> lisp concentrates on algorithms
<water> because arrow has no cardinality limit at any level
<water> no infinity is smaller than arrow
<eihrul> you do have limits on finite resources however (i.e. hardware)
<water> of course
<water> but as long as you can finitely encode a system (via axioms or procedures, etc), it doesn't matter
08:30pm
<eihrul> but then you have a limit on the number of finite encodings as well
-:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes
<water> sure
<water> hey _QZ, check out #osdev
-:- SignOff Syntax: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Syntax[01-047.006.popsite.net])
08:40pm
-:- Syntax [dma@01-047.006.popsite.net] has joined #Tunes
-:- bbl_ruiner_ is now known as _ruiner_
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
<water> could someone beep _QZ for me?
<water> damn it, he's even lurking on his own god-damned channel!!!
09:10pm
<water> bbl
-:- water [water@tnt-9-195.tscnet.net] has left #tunes []
09:20pm
-:- _QZ is now known as water
<eihrul> rmmm?
-:- water is now known as _QZ
<_QZ> :)
<eihrul> that's just wrong dude :)
<eihrul> tis one thing to mock a nick, but tis another to steal one
<_QZ> i wasnt stealing it
<_QZ> i was using it
<eihrul> stealing/using... same difff
<_QZ> i use yer nick all the time and u never complained about that
09:30pm
<eihrul> because i never knew you used it
<eihrul> now that you mention the fact, i do mind
<_QZ> besides i was just gonna register osdev for water since i wasnt here when he wanted me to leave the channel
<_QZ> but he registered his nick so i couldnt
<eihrul> when have you been using my nick? :)
-:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has left #tunes []
<_QZ> j/k
-:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes
<_QZ> i think im gonna start my own clothes business and not put any tags on the clothes
<eihrul> what for?
<_QZ> NoTagZ
<_QZ> thats a good name
<eihrul> you could also put a non-existent tunes tag on it
<_QZ> i hate cutting all the tags off new clothes
<eihrul> as an optional extra
<_QZ> hehe
<_QZ> and why the hell do dockers pants cost $62 a pair?
<eihrul> what country they made in?
<_QZ> i can see paying that for levis cuz they are thicker but dockers are nothing
<_QZ> dockers are made by levis
<eihrul> oh, if they're no generic or made in taiwan
<eihrul> costs a lot
<eihrul> s/no/not
09:40pm
<_QZ> u havent heard of dockers?
<eihrul> i have, but who cares anyway? :)
<eihrul> just buy the generic taiwanese pants and be done w/ it
<_QZ> uhhh
<_QZ> no thanks
<eihrul> hrmm... should privileges be on a thread/continuation granularity or a process granularity?
<eihrul> if one thread in the process can be trusted, all of them might as well be
<eihrul> but then there could be a situation in which only one thread needs to be trusted...
<eihrul> eh?
* eihrul/#tunes shrugs.
-:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES ([x]chat)
09:50pm
-:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp43.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes
<_QZ> if all the threads originate from the same binary then they should all have the same prov
10:20pm
<_QZ> pinnacle sucks, they wont let u download drivers
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp293.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
10:30pm
-:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp186.wi.centurytel.net] has joined #tunes
<_ruiner_> dammit
<_QZ> heh
<_QZ> i hate it when that happens
<_ruiner_> I lost my connection to the net, not just bnet
<_ruiner_> dammit.....another loss
<_QZ> ugh
<_QZ> wanna try again?
10:50pm
<_ruiner_> tomorrow?
<_ruiner_> I just got pizza
<_QZ> k
<_ruiner_> so I don't really wanna play at the moment
<_ruiner_> have you toyed with Be at all?
<_QZ> i have be
<_ruiner_> what are your impressions of it?
<_QZ> well its better than windows
<_ruiner_> how about linux?
<abi> well, linux is good for the buisness world, but for the game hungry home user, the speed just isn't there
<_QZ> but beos doesnt have the stuff that linux has
<_ruiner_> I was asking for a comparison between be and linux actually
<_QZ> well beos uses my dual cpu better than linux
<_QZ> i dont even know if linux is really using them both
<_ruiner_> hmmm.....if you had to pick one of them to develop for, based on the os itself, not what else is out there for it....what would it be?
<_QZ> the shell in beos is there and thats it
<_QZ> it doesnt have the flare that linux has
<_QZ> it seems like it was added as an afterthought
<_QZ> i would pick linux
<_QZ> beos isnt even finished
<_ruiner_> a friend showed it to me, it looked pretty slick
<_QZ> u cant change window colors
<_QZ> it doesnt have window shading yet
<_ruiner_> haven't gotten to break it myself yet though
<_ruiner_> uhhuh
<_ruiner_> does brix have window shading yet? ;-p
<_QZ> and i hate the separate window for each folder
<_QZ> brix wont have window shading at all
<_QZ> it is only required in a process driven environment like any existing os
11:00pm
<_ruiner_> what parts of an os NEED to be written in asm?
<_ruiner_> just the boot sector right?
<_ruiner_> I'd assume the kernel would be pretty heavy with it, but it doesn't have to be...it could be c with some inline asm
<_ruiner_> maybe we should talk in osdev so water doesn't read the logs and whine about us
<_QZ> k
11:10pm
-:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Ping timeout for smkl[glubimox.yok.utu.fi])
<hcf> abi: ipic is at www-ccs.cs.umass.edu/~shri/iPic.html
11:30pm
-:- water [water@tnt-9-179.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes
<_QZ> water: u got ops yet?
<water> not yet.. i had to leave earlier
<water> sorry
<_QZ> i just told them to leave
<water> k
<water> hcf is afk it seems
<_QZ> oh crap i had ops and coulda op'd ya
<water> someone get his attention, please
<_QZ> i am trying
<_ruiner_> beep him
<water> geez, how annoying
<_ruiner_> lol
11:40pm
<water> thanks, hcf
<water> :P
<water> that was surreal. ok everybody come back in
11:50pm
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1020
IRC log ended Wed Oct 20 00:00:00 1999