IRC log started Fri Oct  8 00:00:00 1999
[msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.1008
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<Fare> forum
04:10am
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<fire> fare :D
<fire> zhivago?
<abi> hmmm... zhivago is a C god from efnet #c :)
06:50am
<fire> :(
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
07:00am
>>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial218.infolink.com.br] requested PING 939391252 from #tunes
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<smokie> hello
<smkl> hi smoke
<IMPO> hi
08:10am
<smokie> Is there a webpage with status reports on the i386 subproject of tunes?
<smokie> www.tunes.org/LLL/i386/index.html was last updated 1998/11/27
<smkl> probably not ...
08:20am
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<IMPO> has elgato been in here lately
<hcf> abi: seen fire
<abi> fire was last seen on IRC 1 hours, 50 minutes and 18 seconds ago, saying: :( [Fri Oct  8 06:53:18 1999]
<IMPO> wow really
<IMPO> what bad timing
08:50am
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<Kaufmann> Shalom!
<Kaufmann> Anyone?
<hcf> bless u
<IMPO> :D
<Kaufmann> LOL
<Kaufmann> So no luck with www.technetcast.com yet :P
<Kaufmann> Ooooh, waitaminnit, there it goes..........
<Kaufmann> YES! IT'S LOADING!!!! SWEET VICTORY AT LAST!!!!!!!! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!....... *ahem*
09:50am
<Kaufmann> "and then he disappeared in a sudden burst of smoke"
<Kaufmann> Now if you'll excuse me, I'll be watching Knuth over the Net
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10:00am
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<Kaufmann> Or at least I would, if the damn thing weren't so bloody SLOW
10:10am
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* hcf/#tunes is away: (afk)
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<Kaufmann> Hey
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<Somebody> Why hello, Kaufmann! Welcome back!
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<Kaufmann> Gee, thanks, Somebody!
11:30am
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<Miellaby> Hi:)
<Kaufmann> Well, I'm leaving now
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01:10pm
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<Miellaby> bye.
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01:20pm
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<Beholder> Hmm... quiet in here today
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<Beholder> Hey Fare
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<water> hi all
<Beholder> Hey water, how have you been :)
<water> not bad... this is the first day of a 2-wk vacation
02:50pm
<Beholder> water: Good, back home, or still out in California
<water> back home
<water> it seems tunes has been a wasteland since i left though
<Beholder> water:  Pretty much.  I'm not sure why.  
<water> well, i've been working on my ideas steadily, though i haven't found much help in my work at all
<water> i mean help from others or their work
<Beholder> water: How far along is the prototype?
<water> i've been re-coding it several different ways, but i haven't found a satisfactory approach to the basic problem of how to 'write code' in arrow and have it update the system in an intuitive way
<water> i _have_ managed, however, to link together my human language ideas with arrow in a more conrete way, but the human language idea is even more a 'work in progress' than arrow
<Beholder> water: What approaches have you used thus far?
<water> well, there's the basic approach of subclassing world from graph from arrow class (as is in the code on the tunes site)
<water> there's another method that i tried to play with based on an ontology class, but it's too hard to work out
<water> one modification involves adding a 'quantifier' method to world, but there must be 'primitive' arrows to provide handles for basic functionality
<Beholder> water: Are these problems a limitiation of the design of current languages, or problems with the orginal idea?
03:00pm
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<water> back
* water/#tunes checks the logs
<Beholder> heh
<Beholder> water: Are these problems a limitiation of the design of current languages, or problems with the orginal idea?
<Beholder> That's the last thing I said
<water> hmm
<water> "problems with the original idea"?
<Beholder> water: I mean your original method of implementing arrows.  Maybe you need to change your approach?
<water> maybe, but i honestly can't think of an easier approach
<water> except if there were a lisp environment that were as good as squeak
<Beholder> water: Lisp would be better?
<water> maybe, but there isn't a lisp with a decent environment
<Beholder> water: Can you summarize your needs for the environment?
03:10pm
<water> not really
<water> abstractness, mostly
<Beholder> water: Ahh.  
<water> to bootstrap the arrow ideas with as little (simple) code as possible
<water> once the ideas are bootstrap, i'll concentrate on optimizing for execution speed and storage space
<water> s/bootstrap/bootstrapped
<Beholder> water: sounds right.  So you need a bootable lisp?
<water> then (and simultaneously), os implementation, reflection-style
<water> no
<water> i don't care if it's bootable at all
<Beholder> Ahh.
<water> the only reason (to me) for coding the os part is to enhance market value, so to speak
<Beholder> What about python? It's interpreted, and has some nice data handling.  It's not very lisp'ish though
<water> no, it's not
<water> i mean, it's relatively complicated, and the syntax gets in the way
<water> there's already a lisp for squeak, and i'm modifying the parser for arrow input
<water> brb
<Beholder> ok
03:20pm
<water> back
<Beholder> wb :)
<Beholder> I thought squeak was a language, why does it have a lisp interpreter within it?
<water> because people wanted to port lisp utilities to squeak
<water> and besides, it gives lisp a full graphical IDE
<Beholder> Ahh, that makes sense.  I'll have to try that squeak out.  Sounds interesting.
<water> squeak is really more about the environment, though
<water> yeah, it does much more in about 6mb than other languages do in 50
<Beholder> :)
03:30pm
<Beholder> If I download squeak, are there any decent docs on how to program in it?
<water> yeah, within the arrow environment, i've got to demonstrate that it can handle intensional semantics at every level, as well as run itself and reflect ontologically and support ontological relativism
<water> beh: yeah, check the swiki (from the home page)
<water> there are also docs within the squeak image
<water> and the code is commented, of course :)
<water> fine-grain, that is
<Beholder> :)  I'm downloading it from the ports collection right now.  Squeak2 I think is the newer one :)
<water> ports collection?
<water> 2.5 should be the newest version
<water> how big is it?
<Beholder> water: I use FreeBSD.  Ports collection is a directory structure that allows you to simply type "make install" in a packages directory and it'll download, compile and install it for you (very brain dead, I love it :)
<Beholder> Hmm... it's downloading 2.4... maybe they haven't updated for 2.5 yet
<Beholder> 487K
<water> that's for winCE!
<water> oh wait
<water> you mean the VM?
<water> n/m then
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<Beholder> I'm not sure, I just went to /usr/ports/lang/squeak2  and installed :)
<water> on what server?
<water> abi: squeak?
<abi> well, squeak is a cool language descended from Smalltalk, at http://squeak.cs.uiuc.edu/ or at http://www.squeak.org/ or The open source mouse that roars!
<Beholder> From an FTP site....   ftp://ftp.cs.uni-magdeburg.de/pub/Smalltalk/Smalltalk/Squeak/unix/
<water> yeah, 2.4c is the newest unix squeak
<Beholder> Ahh, you use 2.5 for windows?
<water> hmm...
<water> i'm connected at 19.2k
<water> yeah
<Beholder> Ouch... bad phone lines.
<water> i'm going to reconnect, brb
<Beholder> ok :)
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<Beholder> Better connection?
03:40pm
<_water> no. worse, actually
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<Beholder> Hey water, sorry I gotta run for about 15-20 min, BRB 
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<water> :P
<water> 21.6 <- good enough
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<_water> grrr!
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<water> beh: still there?
<Fare> Gakuk!
<water> Yablutsk!
03:50pm
* Fare/#Tunes back from a month of conferences, meetings, etc!
<water> ah
<Tril> BARFOO
<water> Tril, too!
<water> :)
<Tril> water: beh said he would be back in 15-20 min
* Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 616 hrs 1 min 41 secs
<water> k
* water/#tunes is now on vacation.
<Fare> water! tril!
<water> well, Fare, it may enlighten you to know that no arrow logic or related researchers know of any way to help me with my ideas or with Tunes.
<Tril> Where are the reflection researchers? Don't we have one now?
<water> Fare seems to be one of a few in the world
<Fare> Tril: what reflection researchers?
<water> exactly
<Fare> well, there's the MAUDE team, definitely doing great things on reflection
<water> yes, that's true
<Fare> although Meseguer won't release the source
<Tril> What about Lesourd
<Fare> Lesourd, also
<Fare> no news from him for a few weeks
<Fare> Lesourd is actually working with Jacques Pitrat being his advisor
<Tril> who is advising whom?
<Fare> (if only J.P. would have published his MACISTE!)
<water> Fare: i'm adapting a lisp interpreter to interact with arrow, although i haven't completed the arrow programming aspect
<Fare> Pitrat is the thesis advisor, of course!
<Fare> water: great
<Fare> water: I'll be looking for a group to build a theorem prover based on category theory; now of anyone who'd be interested?
<Fare> There's Kestrel.edu's SpecWare thingy, but it's heavily proprietary
<Fare> abi: SpecWare?
<abi> bugger all, i dunno, fare
<water> hmm. not really, fare
<Fare> abi: SpecWare is a proprietary formal system based on category theory made at Kestrel.edu
<Tril> water: what do you think of making public your collection of research articles
<water> tril: it would take a while
<Tril> to organize, or to file transfer?
<water> btw, my new desktop is completely a linux box
<water> tril: organize
<Tril> back to square one, review needs tunes
<Fare> wow, water is using linux!?
<water> yeah, windoze just pissed me off a few too many times
<Fare> Tril: I thought the Review project might be a testbed for Lesourd's APKEI...
<water> fare: i'm barely using it. i can't even mount volumes right, yet
* Fare/#Tunes mirrors the CCRMA's site ... some colleagues have asked me to write a trio for flute, oboe, and cello...
<Fare> water: why mount volumes?
<Tril> Fare: I was going to ask him, what data is meant to go in APKEI, and what format will it be stored in?
04:00pm
<Tril> Fare: Zip disks.
<water> fare: to move over all my downloaded postscript files, and to access my zip archives
<water> also my ditto tapes
<water> right now, i can't evn get online with my linux box
<water> let alone get any data into it
<Tril> water: what distro
<water> rh5.1
<water> heh.. i can't even upgrade my kernel
<Tril> well, this irc net is great for linux help
<Tril> but reading a few howto's wouldnt hurt
<water> yeah, if i could figure out how to get them off the cd!
<water> not even the package manager works... but it might be a loose hw connection
<Tril> I hate rpm, it doesn't work very well in optimal circumstances
<water> brb
<Tril> debian!
<Fare> Tril: he'll make his own format (most likely a huge memory mapped file of indexed words)
* Fare/#Tunes hates zip ; prefers IDE racks instead
* Beholder/#tunes is back, checking scrollback one sec..
<water> back
<Tril> wb, w and b
* Fare/#Tunes went debian, and mostly does not regret it (as far as single-machine goes, that is)
<water> well, i digress. what about tunes and arrow? where are we?
* Tril/#TUNES tries again to make a diagram of the necessary components of TUNES
* Beholder/#tunes went FreeBSD, doesn't regret it at all
<Fare> what I *hate* about debian is that machine-generated files are mixed with user managed files in /etc
<Fare> which makes it very difficult to manage a multi-machine /etc
<water> in a week, after extensive luddite-style vacationing, i will return to formal theory and coding
<Fare> what's luddite-style vacationing?
<Tril> IRC, I guess
<water> that will give me a solid week of uninterrupted focusing
<water> tril: :P
04:10pm
<water> luddite = technophobe
<Beholder> Hey Fare, Tril.  How are ya both?
<Fare> Beh: sleepy
<Tril> don't know
<Beholder> Fare: Done any new doc's in the last while?
<Tril> that's that "feeling" thing again
<water> <water> well, i digress. what about tunes and arrow? where are we?
<Tril> water i replied to that
* Tril/#TUNES tries again to make a diagram of the necessary components of TUNES
<water> hmm
<Tril> diagram of any kind, picture or essay
* Fare/#Tunes hides
* Fare/#Tunes goes hide under a sheet instead
<Fare> bye!
<water> oh great
<Tril> goodnight Fare
* water/#tunes waves bye to Fare
<Tril> :(
<water> :(
<Beholder> :(
<Beholder> bye fare
<smkl> :( (i can't send email)
* Beholder/#tunes is lanched into a crying fit from all this sadness...
<Beholder> :)
<water> tril: details of diagram process?
<Tril> ii'm trying tro find if there are any more than these 6 components needed in tunes. Actually i'm assuming there aren't, so I'm trying to define the 6 components. Then I will describe their relationship among each other (hopefully)
<Tril> typesystem, persistent store, evaluator, dynamic compiler, module system, and specification language
<Beholder> Tril: Good, diagrams can convey the concept as well as words (assuming it's a good diagram :)
<water> hmm. i remember a similar approach i looked at years ago for tunes, and i wound up unifying most of it, but i'd bet you'd already guessed that
<Tril> sure the components are tightly related, but there are distinct functions
<Tril> which can be separated, conceptually. 
<water> yes and no
04:20pm
<water> these 'distinct functions' could probably fit under some larger family of structures / processes
<water> just like re-write logic covers a lot of traditionally separate ideas
<water> (wow. in a year or so, squeak will be a really impressive programming system)
<Beholder> water: Why in a year or so?
<Tril> semantics are always relative to an ontology, but that's recursive (the ontology has semantics of its own), right?
<water> beh: well, they are working out native code-generation and distributed name-spaces and segmenting up the images for co-op work, and they already have a multimedia system
<water> tril: hmm
<Tril> multimedia ala Be?
<water> ala Self Morphic programming-style. reflection makes it fast, though (the native-code generation part)
<Tril> what's Morphic have to do with Self?
<water> morphic was invented in self
<Tril> ok
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<water> anyway, squeak now handles fm and midi sound, 3d programming and scripting, and lots of streaming capabilities
<water> they're also putting together a system for pluggable file-systems
<water> SqueakOS, someday :)
<Beholder> SqueakOS sounds interesting :)
<water> kinda like UniOS, maybe? ;)
* water/#tunes remembers what the topic should be.
<water> ahem. tunes.
<water> tril: yeah, but the recursion isn't strict, since the semantics is cyclically-referenced in general
04:30pm
<water> and actually, the 'ontologies' idea is probably just going to be an observed behavioral style of the system until i can systematically encode them as such
<Tril> well, at least we want every part of the system to have semantics defined elsewhere in the system.
<water> sure
<Tril> then the meaning of the system as a whole is interpreted by the outside observer
<water> hmm
<water> well, i don't eschew positivsm like that, but ok
<Tril> in a sense the meaning is determined by the top-most interpreter which is the hardware itself
<water> er... that idea doesn't lend itself to distributed systems, does it?
<Tril> distributed systems have in common: the same source code, the same compiler, and differ in the data given to the compiler (for target platform)
<water> and it doesn't fit well with the ontology idea, since the hardware is an ontology according to the arrow intro
<water> why should dsitrib sys's have even those things in common?
<Tril> well, ok, they have *A* compiler and *A* source code
<water> don't be such a push-over :)
<water> just ack that we have different goals
<Tril> I can admit when I'm wrong. Of course the source and compiler can be changed.
<Tril> I'm trying to point out that the process of compiling is the same on all of them
<water> hmm
<water> you know, i still haven't found anyone who can really comment on my "arrows as info atoms" idea
04:40pm
<Tril> maybe they're afraid to say that the idea sucks?
<water> am i that sensitive to criticism?
* Beholder/#tunes lives in constant fear of water... heheh
<Tril> you certainly investewd a lot in it
<water> but then, they aren't interested in _why_ i wanted to use arrows, since the currrent culture eschews hackerdom vs users
<Tril> why did you want to use arrows
<Beholder> mmm... eschews... I like em chocolate covered too.  Come on guys, lighten up.  Maybe the reason no one has critiqued arrows is that they don't fully understand it
<water> beh: yeah, you unfortunately might be right
<Tril> Or they make it to be more complicated than it is.
<water> tril: they very often do that
<water> tril: i thought the arrow intro covered the idea, though
* water/#tunes opens the web-version of the arrow intro to review it
<Tril> you mean the old-version?
<water> yeah
<water> wow. it still says "model-level reflection"
<water> and it says nothing about epistemics vs ontology
* water/#tunes hides for not having updated it in so long
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<Tril> it's mr. Vapor
<water> tril: there's been quite a nick-shift lately
<Tril> no one has taken "land" yet I see
<air> Tril: u can have it
<Tril> or I could just remain myself
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<_water> arg!
<_water> well, i was _about_ to say...
04:50pm
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<_water> if i get my squeak code to demonstrate most of the ideas from the intro, i will update the version on the tunes site, as well as the reference list
<Tril> is the connection problem due to a bad phone line in your apt?
<Tril> and will be solved when you move?
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<Beholder> His connection really sucks... he gets 19.2K sometimes :(
<Tril> i have a pretty good connection. speed limits at 26.4 but doesnt drop out hardly ever
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<water> lag....
<Tril> you can answer in here
<water> the server must be overloaded tonight
<Beholder> Tril: I get 31.2k
<water> i usually get 50k with no prob
<water> anyway
* water/#tunes looks at the logs
<Tril> water: do you read /msg?
<water> not usually
<water> i'll have cable modem after this
<Tril> so is it the ISP, or the phone line?
<water> it's the isp
<water> and only tonight is it this bad
<water> about tunes, now... :)
<water> it seems that i don't have much theoretical backing for discussing my actual ideas, though referencing existing research is effective for building upon others' ideas
05:00pm
<Tril> so?
<water> which only further enforces the notion that i have to write several papers to explain arrow
<water> it also means that i won't get any help from people, which frustrates me
<water> i _need_ feedback, because i live with idiots. i can convince them of flawed ideas as well as good ideas. it's rather sickening
<Tril> have you tried posting to usenet?
<water> not recently
<water> my original posts were ignored
<Tril> what groups did you post to?
<water> info.theory and some other one
<Beholder> water: Hmm... that's not good.  Have you talked to any PHD type CS people who research this field?
<water> beh: what field? :)
<Beholder> Computer Science
<Beholder> OS Research I guess
<water> beh: not even the ontology guys like the idea of using them for computer languages, etc
<Tril> info.*? do you mean comp.research?
<water> maybe comp.theory
<water> yes, that was it
<water> (wow. some fellow came up with a procedural gfx-engine and got all those idiotic c-programming game companies drooling)
<water> (it's about time they got a clue)
<water> (beh: take notes :)
05:10pm
<Beholder> :)
<water> beh: http://www.nervana.com
<Beholder> I checked them out already today :)
<Beholder> News on slashdot
<water> yeah
<air> have any of u ever gotten a zit like thing on the roof of yer mouth that forms in about a minute?
* water/#tunes eyes air curiously
<Tril> air: don't chew on metal
<Tril> air: it's called a wound
<air> Tril: eh?
<air> no its some kinda mouth zit
-:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial609.infolink.com.br] has joined #tunes
<water> hey kauf
<air> just wondering if there is a less painfull way to remove it other than sticking a knife into it
<water> air: go for it :)
<air> i know it will be gone in an hour but thats too long to have it there
<water> back to tunes!
<Beholder> :)
<Tril> water: i'm looking up other newsgroups that would be better to post to
<water> tril: sorry, due to all sorts of circumstances, #modtunes is dead
-:- IMP [ihatebob@p09-39.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com] has joined #tunes
-:- IMP is now known as IMPO
<water> hell, impo
<Tril> #modtunes was never alive, nobody ever went to it. The question is, why are you giving up on getting people to use it?
<Tril> maybe traffic here got better?
<Kaufmann> Anyone want to talk ideas for a new Lisp dialect?
<IMPO> hi
<water> kauf: arrow? :)
<water> tril: no one interested in tunes has been around. mostly immature programmers
<IMPO> i fall into both categories
<water> tril: also, there's still a ton of noise making it past the bitchX script
<Kaufmann> water, no :)
<Tril> water: maybe comp.theory.self-org-sys :)
<water> i thought about that one... isn't it dead, though?
<Kaufmann> I've been thinking mostly about functional stuff... things like lambda-list pattern-matching and function polymorphism, so that you can do things like (define (! 1) (lambda (n) 1)) (define (! n) (lambda (n) (* n (! (- n 1)))))
05:20pm
<Kaufmann> Of course, that's not strictly a functional issue, but nonetheless...
<Tril> seriously, try on: comp.os.misc, comp.lang.misc, they will probably be a lot more receptive than comp.theory (which seems like another conference announcement board)
<Tril> water: probably, my server carries it though :)
<Kaufmann> Although I'll probably rename lambda to just \, as it should be
<water> i'm guessing that i'll find flaming c-coders without clues, though
<Tril> sci.math.research
<water> yeah, that's one i'm a big fan of
<water> :)
<Beholder> Hehe, newsgroups I'd loose my mind in :)
<Tril> sci.logic.. ok that's all I'm looking
<water> tril: thx, but i'm not sure that i will get any help from those
-:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.134.42.SanJose1.Level3.net] has joined #tunes
<lar1> Hey
<water> eek
<IMPO> i want an email account at sci.fi
<Kaufmann> So nobody's actually interested :)
<water> kauf: not now
<water> kauf: later, maybe
<lar1> air:  Can you help me a little on an electronics project?
<lar1> air: _very_ simple stuff
<water> lar1: somewhere else!!
<Tril> alt.comp.linguistics 
<water> tril: i've looked at all those before
<lar1> water:  Well, air is in here, right?
<water> lar1: /msg him, idiot!
<Tril> water: have you thought about a mailing list for discussing arrow?
<Kaufmann> OUCH
<water> tril: who would listen? who could give feedback at all?
<lar1> water:  Yah well... bah!  No one has ever had a problem with that before!
<water> lar1: _i_ have
<Kaufmann> That's not very nice to lar1, imnsho
<lar1> Thank you Kaufmann
<water> kauf: i don't care about being nice to people who leech on the channel's lack of health
<Tril> water: well, some arrow stuff might be off topic to tunes@tunes.org, so some people wouldnt post. But if you had your own list, which could be for people asking questions about the paper, they might
<lar1> water: I _DO NOT_ leech on this channels lack of health!  I discuss TUNES/<>/Arrow related things often!!
<Tril> then again you would have to not flame everyone who criticizes you
<water> lol
<water> yeah :)
<water> lar1: sure, and that belongs in the channel. but electronics questions do not
05:30pm
<lar1> water:  How often does air talk about tunes related things?  Never?  So does that mean he should be banned?
<Tril> probably.
<water> lar1: yes
<lar1> Oy vey
<lar1> I sense zelots here
<Tril> why dont you guys go to #brix and talk about electronics :)
<water> lar1: how old are you again?
<lar1> water: 14
<IMPO> will i be banned if i only came here to absorb knowledge
<water> just thought that i'd re-iterate that point
<lar1> So if I am going to say anything at all, it better be about TUNES?
<water> impo: no
<lar1> water:  Whats that supposed to mean?!
<Kaufmann> lar1, yeah, or the evil moderators'll kill you :)
<IMPO> excellent
<lar1> Kauf:  Heh :)
<water> just don't purposely use the channel for other topics, please. and i cannot and will not ban anyone
<lar1> water:  Yes, whatever... I wont be too offtopic.  Now what was that comment about my age suppossed to mean?
<water> lar1: it means that you're nowhere near well-read or experienced to talk about projects that you don't understand
<lar1> water:  Does that mean that I should nolonger make an attempt to learn from you guys?  I should leave #tunes and never come back until I am 21?
<water> lar1: no, jut don't waste our time. pick up a few books
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-:- SignOff k6_2_3dnow: #TUNES (Read error to k6_2_3dnow[bk1-33.citynet.net]: Connection reset by peer)
<Tril> lar1: it means water likes a very high signal to noise ratio. Don't take it personally.
<lar1> Tril:  Whatever
<lar1> I'll be back somtime mabye
-:- lar1 [LarMan@dialup-209.245.134.42.SanJose1.Level3.net] has left #tunes []
<water> read!
<Kaufmann> Now now, let's not be ageist here.
<water> i'm not. i've tried working with him before
<water> he says he understands ideas until talking to him reveals that all he wants out of life is to make better c compilers
<Kaufmann> Why would anyone want to do that?
<Kaufmann> Make a better C compiler, I mean
<water> dunno
05:40pm
<water> he actually wanted to make an "assembly compiler"
<water> impo: questions?
<Kaufmann> LOL
<Kaufmann> How would he go about doing that?!?
<smkl> sounds bit like c--
<Kaufmann> I mean, it does seem like an interesting notion... LOL
* water/#tunes points out that #modtunes is moderated, but anyone can listen in to focused tunes discussion.
<IMPO> i am reading the docs on your site at the moment
<IMPO> so to answer your question, not right now
<water> impo: ok
<IMPO> i think if i have something to ask i will look it up on my own before bothering all of you with it
<water> well, the naive questions aren't bad unless you don't understand our answers
<water> :)
<IMPO> i have too much pride to admit i don't understand anyway
<water> hmmm ok
<water> :)
<Kaufmann> IMPO, it's like I say, nobody actually understands Tunes... not even Faré... we all just hang around and pretend we do :)
<IMPO> well it's sort of hard to understand something that exists entirely in theories and plans
<IMPO> if you want to be semantic you could say quantum mechanics is a farce
<water> well, the parts of tunes can be found in various places, but not as a whole at all
<Kaufmann> ?!?
<Kaufmann> "quantum mechanics is a farce" << ?!?
<water> impo actually has a point
<IMPO> quantum mechanics exists only in physical theories and estimations
<IMPO> there is only shreds of evidence to support it
<water> just becuase qm isn't expressed easily (like tunes), doesn't make the theory less useful
<IMPO> back to reading
<Kaufmann> IMPO, the entire world is based around electronics, which in turn is based around quantum mechanics. Do you call that "only shreds of evidence"?
<IMPO> electronics is based on quantum mechanics?
<water> "entire world" = electronics?
<IMPO> are you saying electronics could not exist without knowing what antimatter is
<IMPO> that is very hard to believe
05:50pm
<smkl> electronics existed a while before qm
<IMPO> yes
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[dial609.infolink.com.br])
<smkl> of course qm gives better approximations of reality than old electronics, but i don't think it's needed much yet (but i really could be wrong)
<IMPO> well in any event
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<air> lar: u have to forgive water as he has never been with a girl and is a little uptight :)
<IMPO> my point was not that quantum mechanics do not exist
<water> hmm.. back to tunes
<Kaufmann> OK people, I got disconnected about three minutes ago. Please repeat anything you've said to me since.
<IMPO> what i was saying is that tunes is for the most part intangible, so there is no reason for it not to be widely misunderstood
<water> it was that tunes isn't invalid simply because its hard to grok
<water> kauf: check the logs
<Kaufmann> water, where?
<water> impo: ok
<smkl> www.tunes.org/files/irc
<water> kauf: http://www.tunes.org/files/irc
<Kaufmann> And how often does it get updated?
<smkl> realtime
<water> yeah
<Kaufmann> kewl
<air> realtime if TUNES is not lagged
<Kaufmann> Anyway, back to the matter at hand - IMPO, what do you think a diode is?
<water> yeah, minus lag
>>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial237.infolink.com.br] requested PING 939430540 from TUNES
<IMPO> i know it is used in radios
<IMPO> and often contains a crystal piece
<IMPO> but electronics is really not my area
<IMPO> doesn't it compress the crystal?
<IMPO> which creates electricity?
<Kaufmann> <smkl> electronics existed a while before qm << QM has been around since the 20's...
<IMPO> isn't that the idea behind the navy's radar system during world war 2
<Kaufmann> actually, even earlier... since the 1900's
<water> what's the point of all  this?
<smkl> maxwells law was invented around 1880
<air> water: to piss u off :)
<water> air: i'm beginning to think so :)
<Kaufmann> IMPO, my point is that most of modern solid-state physics (the base for electronics) is heavily dependent on the /fact/ that the predictions of QM have been experimentally proven to be accurate.
<IMPO> here is a question
<IMPO> how many electrons have you personally seen
<IMPO> in real life
<water> which means that a non-intuitive idea may still improve understanding and workings of thinggs we-re already familiar with
<air> IMPO: a diode is like a switch that requires a small voltage before it switches and it only lets current travel one way thru it unless it reached breakdown voltage
<IMPO> i am willing to wager none
<IMPO> yet you believe in them
<IMPO> another question
<Kaufmann> IMPO, none. I've also never seen a black hole in person. What's your point?
<IMPO> do you expect the majority of people to comprehend how electronics works
<IMPO> or quantum mechanics
<IMPO> that is my point exactly
<IMPO> you still believe in them
<IMPO> and attempt to understand them
06:00pm
<IMPO> although for all purposes you could easily say they are not real and dispell them entirely
<IMPO> that is similar to tunes in that most people have a hard time completely understanding it
<IMPO> not because of any aspect of it in particular
<Kaufmann> IMPO, I "believe" in electrons because the QM model of the subatomic world describes accurately the results of experiments. If I "dispelled" the notion of electrons, I'd have to find a better theory.
<IMPO> but that there is no foundation for them to start from
<IMPO> it is entirely left to creativity and intellect
<IMPO> you apparently missed my point when i was saying that quantum mechanics could be found false
<IMPO> i thought this conversation was over a while ago
<Kaufmann> IMPO, quantum mechanics are every bit as real as relativity.
<IMPO> actually that is not possible
<IMPO> according to both theories at the moment
<air> water: by discussing other topics here the ppl stay cuz the channel is active. and then when someone wants to talk about tunes they can just change the topic. if u dont let ppl discuss other topics then the channel would be dead 95% of the time and no one would ever be here to talk about tunes
<IMPO> only one of them can exist
<Kaufmann> Na-ah, I won't let go just yet :)
<Kaufmann> Physics is my pet peeve
<IMPO> without a unified field theory one of them has to be wrong
<water> air: i know, but c-coding talk _never_ leads back to tunes
<Kaufmann> IMPO, not quite. The theories behind both may not be correct in their current form, but the physical phenomena that we interpret in terms of the models provided by the theories are real - this is indisputable.
<IMPO> ok i agree
<IMPO> i never said they were false
<IMPO> [20:41] <IMPO> well it's sort of hard to understand something that exists entirely in theories and plans
<IMPO> [20:41] <IMPO> if you want to be semantic you could say quantum mechanics is a farce
<IMPO> that was my statement
<IMPO> you did not understand it
<IMPO> and you still do not
<Tril> of course QM could be found false, that's the definition of a scientific theory- it's falsifiable
<Kaufmann> So it's just a matter of fitting the theory to reality. Of course, this would be a lot simpler if there was any kind of experimental data on the kind of conditions that force QP to interact with relativistic phenomena
<IMPO> i think quantum mechanics will be theoretical for a long time yet
<Kaufmann> Tril, the theory can be found false, but the phenomena in themselves cannot - barring a long series of tremendous experimental errors in particle accelerators and the such all over the world, of course.
<Kaufmann> IMPO, it already isn't entirely theoretical. I myself have visited a particle accelerator at the University of Campinas, in São Paulo (Brazil)... the whole thing is QM in practice
<IMPO> and if i found a small dress on the side of my car and the engine stopped
<IMPO> i could blame the breakdown on magical fairies that tinker with my automobile
<IMPO> and it would not be entirely theoretical
<IMPO> as i have the dress 
06:10pm
<Kaufmann> IMPO, that's assuming that there's no other possible theory that explains these events as well or better than the "fairies" theory.
<Kaufmann> Occam's razor.
<IMPO> are you saying the fairies aren't real
<water> primitive complexity theory
<Kaufmann> IMPO, no, I'm saying that it's very unlikely that the fairies are real.
<IMPO> as long as they cannot be disproven they are a valid theory
<Kaufmann> Not possessing complete and absolute knowledge of the way the universe works, we must content ourselves with fallible probability.
<IMPO> i refuse to
<Kaufmann> IMPO, valid yes. Good no. Probable - hell no!
<Kaufmann> IMPO, well, you have a better idea?
<IMPO> probability has a very big downfall
<IMPO> that being you expect things to happen and then they don't
<Tril> IMPO wants religion
<IMPO> and it hits you like a mack truck
<Kaufmann> IMPO, what I'm saying is that probability may not be perfect, but there's no better choice - unless, as Tril has pointed out, you like religion better.
<Tril> religion provides absolute truth
<Tril> (or seeks it)
<IMPO> religion also prevents you from having to think for yourself
<Tril> not all religion
<Kaufmann> IMPO, that's not the issue here.
<Tril> actually, my religion says the absolute truth is that we ALWAYS get to think for ourself..
<IMPO> exactly what is the issue
<Kaufmann> Please, let's not get ourselves into a religion debate... if I wanted one, I'd be at DALNet #atheism, not here
<Tril> Kaufmann: How can you discuss science without its counterpart religion?
<IMPO> it has moved from the tunes project's comprehension
<IMPO> to physics
<IMPO> to religion
<Tril> Kaufmann: Science depends absolutely on empirical observation, isn't that a kind of religion on its own?
<Kaufmann> IMPO, quoting James Burke (?), it's all connected.
<Tril> IMPO: how did the topic go from TUNES to phyiscs?
<Kaufmann> Tril, I don't think so
<IMPO> i made a statement about how understanding the tunes project was as complicated for many people as that of major theories
<IMPO> such as quantum mechanics
<IMPO> mainly because it almost entirely exists on paper
<IMPO> well
<IMPO> electronic paper
<Tril> if you print it
06:20pm
<IMPO> oh dear i forgot cartridges again
<IMPO> i suppose i will continue using blue and red ink
<Tril> IMPO: but is the theory of TUNES you see on e-paper, consistent?
<Tril> could it work?
<Kaufmann> Tril, science only exists (and thrives) because it works - because the scientific method is the best possible way for us poor creatures without insight into the mind of God, to gain knowledge about the workings of the universe. Of course, that argumentation in itself depends on logic and empiric observation - but then again, apart from hypothetical revelations of transcendental Platonic truths, what doesn't?
<IMPO> well
<IMPO> i believe what wouldn't can be modified
<IMPO> isn't that another belief of the project
<IMPO> to perfect the failures of previous systems
<Tril> sure
<Kaufmann> boy, I'm on a roll today :)
<Tril> Kaufmann empiric observation is flawed, because the observer always is a factor in the experiemnt
<Tril> the experiments at the quamtum level show that you see what you expect to see
<Kaufmann> Tril, it may be flawed, but - again - there's no other option
<IMPO> there is no way to be completely objective
<Tril> who told me about that grand wave theory a while back?
<Kaufmann> Tril, aha! Again going into the Copenhagen interpretation.
<Kaufmann> Tril, that would be me.
<Tril> Kaufmann that wave throy was even more on target. The particles were being created by waves that originated at the observer's location. 
<Kaufmann> http://www.reasondigest.com/spring1999/waves.htm
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-ip145-c16.tscnet.net])
<Kaufmann> Tril, but not in the "spooky action-at-a-distance" way that Einstein had a problem with.
<Tril> Kaufmann- what if everything you experience is affected by your expectations
<Kaufmann> Don't you love sentences with dangling connectives?
<Kaufmann> :)
<IMPO> only when the kids aren't around
<Kaufmann> Tril, I'd say that /my response/ to everything I experience is affected by my expectations.
<Tril> that's not what i said
06:30pm
<Tril> i said what if your experience was heavily affected by your preconceptions
<Kaufmann> I know that's not what you said... that's what /I/ say, though.
<Tril> my point is, IF that were the case, science would be backwards, and its results meaningless...
<Kaufmann> I guess. So?
<Tril> So how can you prove it's not the case.
<IMPO> does the tunes project have a current prototype language
<Tril> IMPO: meaning what?
<smkl> no
<IMPO> as in
<IMPO> one that has been defined in any way
<Tril> that's what i've been trying to work on for years now :(
<IMPO> how low-level is it going to be
<IMPO> or do you know
<Tril> define low-level
<IMPO> closer to machine language than say a simpleton's syntax (qbasic)
<Tril> no.
<Tril> utterly high-level is the goal..
<IMPO> oh
<IMPO> almost regular speech then?
<IMPO> with some luck people might start using the language in daily communication after awhile :D
<IMPO> i should try that
<Tril> well, you can't run a computer on English
<Tril> in #modtunes we were just talking about using data flow as the model
<IMPO> the next time i go to taco bell i will say "mov tray, 3 chilitos and a doctor pepper"
<IMPO> oh
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<Kaufmann> Tril, as far as I know, even in a room full of Middle Ages Catholic priests who believe in old Greek theories of gravity, two lead pellets of different weights will still fall at the same speed, and accelerate at the same rate (barring issues of attrition, of course). "A quick stroll through a lunatic asylum shows us that faith proves nothing."
<Tril> IMPO: check out the modtunes log for today to see what i mean
<IMPO> ok
<IMPO> With TUNES, all objects are failure-aware, and the user may define failure-recovery policies; that is, people can be confident that even after a hardware failure, the software will be able to start again at the point just before the hardware failed. Users and programmers needn't unnecessarily worry, and lose their time and money at preventing an eventual crash and recovering data. 
<IMPO> is that like the unix kernel's constantly checking for sigalarms?
* Kaufmann/#tunes ducks
<Tril> Fare wrote that. he's talking about checkpointing
<IMPO> well what i mean is, is it going to be similar
-:- SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-069.m2-2.sub.ican.net]: EOF from client)
* Kaufmann/#tunes gets up, relieved that nobody tried to kill IMPO for comparing Tunes with Unix :)
<IMPO> like the only time a unix machine will reboot itself is in case something fails
<IMPO> that way nothing else crashes
<IMPO> and everything is backed up
<Tril> dont know what you mean the unix kernel checking for sigalarm, arn't sigarlarms timers?
<IMPO> it runs on a timer
<IMPO> i'm not sure what the cycle is
06:40pm
<Kaufmann> Tril, do you see my point, about the experience/preconceptions thing?
<IMPO> but it is constantly checking for problems
<IMPO> another thing that is similar then
<IMPO> well i am just telling you what appears to be the same
<IMPO> the way the entire os will be reprogrammable
<IMPO> isn't that similar to unix in some ways as well
<IMPO> you can certainly customize, schedule, set variables within in the system, etc
<IMPO> i have no doubt the tunes project would do a far better job of it
<Tril> Kaufmann: sure ok
<IMPO> but you cannot say it is not at least inspired by some of the notions behind unix
<Tril> IMPO it's inspired by the flaws in unix
<IMPO> but doesn't that mean it seeks to improve on it
<IMPO> that is not the same as being entirely different
<Tril> no, we're starting over 
<IMPO> will there be file trees
<Tril> no, there won't
<Kaufmann> God rid me of file trees
<IMPO> how will things be arranged then
<Tril> we use a finer grain unit than a file.
<Kaufmann> an object database
<Tril> and there isn't one official hierarchy.
<Tril> think of it as a flat array of variables
<IMPO> so there is no classification at all?
<Tril> with some of the variables serving as indexing, categorizing, or organizing..
<Kaufmann> also, persistence ought to be orthogonal - i.e., no point in explicitly distinguishing persistent objects from all others.
<Kaufmann> IMPO, classification is implied contextually, instead of imposed from the heavens
<Tril> IMPO: there is no FORCED classification, i.e. you can use any classification you want
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<IMPO> well excuse me for having a bit of trouble understanding this
<IMPO> the concept is very foreign to me
<IMPO> not to say i am uninterested
<Tril> IMPO: Instead of having a Directory Tree...
<Tril> You can have Two Directory Trees. or Three
<Kaufmann> IMPO, when I first looked at all this, I didn't understand it either. I first had to reflect about all the preconceptions I had about how an OS had to be to understand the proposals behind Tunes.
<Tril> UNIX has hard links. Just think of the FIRST hard link being the SECOND, instead, with the FIRST hard link being in one flat space where all files are.
<water> persistent store ideas?
* water/#tunes checks logs
<IMPO> so none of the trees are independent of each other?
<Tril> they all are.
<Tril> and they're not all trees.
<Tril> you can use whatever organization you want
<IMPO> all right i can understand that
<Kaufmann> Tril, although most conceivable organizations end up being dags of one or another kind.
<Tril> Any user is free to use one hierarchy, but that's not the best way for programs to work. they'll link directly to the information they need.
<Kaufmann> abi, dag?
<abi> no idea, kaufmann
<Tril> dag?
<IMPO> is it a multi-user system
<Kaufmann> abi, dag is directed acyclic graph
<water> directed acyclic graph
06:50pm
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<Kaufmann> The basic idea here is that everything can be modelled as dynamic relationships between objects
<Tril> IMPO: the module system will track changes, including the author, so yes
<jdube_> anyone know where I can get the soundtrack to Pi in mp3 format?
<Kaufmann> jdube, know where I can get Pi?
<water> jdube: wish i knew :)
<Kaufmann> I've been looking all over for this bloody movie here in Brazil
<water> jdube: unfortunately, we're not an mp3 channel
<Tril> mp3.lycos.com
<jdube_> that thing...
<jdube_> has all dead links
<Kaufmann> lol... "unfortunately"
<jdube_> and my friend's dad made it
-:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBackInASecond
<Tril> no thanks to the RIAA probably using it to find sites to threaten
<jdube_> water... I geuss I was mislead... #tunes
<jdube_> ?
<jdube_> really?
<jdube_> wow...
<Tril> jdube_: this channel is a software research channel
<jdube_> ahhh
-:- KaufmannBackInASecond is now known as Kaufmann
<jdube_> ok
<air> what is PI about, i saw it at a video store here
<Kaufmann> jdube, ought to have looked at the topic first...
<Tril> air: thse guys get stuck in a cube and hafe to find their way out. or so I was told.
<jdube_> oh yeah... ;)
<IMPO> wow what an appropriately named movie 
<jdube_> Tril: no, that's canned cube
<IMPO> it is about a cube
<IMPO> and it uses a constant for circles
<jdube_> uhh
<jdube_> i MEANT to say
<jdube_> Tril: no, that's called cube
<jdube_> its another movie...
<Tril> oh, right, the person who told me about it watched both moves the same day
<Tril> I dont remember what pi was then
<jdube_> this one is about someone who finds the pattern in the stock market
<jdube_> and he can predict the outcome
<Tril> the pattern in the stock market is that stupid people don't research and they just buy or sell what other people tell them to. Hence the stock market.
<jdube_> heh
<water> which is based loosely on real events
<water> i mean, pi's plot
<water> tril: chaos theory
<jdube_> yep
<Kaufmann> aaaairgh
<Kaufmann> I hate it when discussions die such tragic deaths
07:00pm
<water> kauf: :P
<water> not with a shout but with a whimper
<Tril> directed what graphs?
<water> acyclic
<Tril> asymmetric?
<water> graphs without loops, essentially
<Kaufmann> any good graph theory references, anyone?
* water/#tunes looks for his graph theory refs
<Tril> I know what it is... but I disagree that there aren't other good ways to organize information in a computer
<water> damn, the url's are on my zip disks
<Tril> water: modprobe ppa
<Tril> :)
<water> huh?
<IMPO> hm
<water> ok, i'll man modprobe when i get back to my linux box
<Tril> water: i'll help you with linux, if you want
<IMPO> does this mean that the computer is constantly backing up everything?
<Tril> water: the ppa module is for the parallel port zip drives
<IMPO> if it's orthogonal
<water> tril: i know about that
<water> impo: sure
<Kaufmann> Tril, my point was just that, if you think of each object as a node, and of each reference from one object to another as a link between two nodes, then no matter what you do, the result will be a dag of some sort.
<water> impo: think of ram as a cache
<Tril> constantly being defined as "at regular user-defined intervals"
<IMPO> doesn't that take a lot of cpu usage
<Tril> IMPO: no, hence the "user-defined"
<water> impo: not more than virtual memory
<Kaufmann> It's really amazing, when you think about it... the number of things that the OS does with the CPU that you never notice or even think about
<water> yep
<water> even programmers are ignorant for the most part
<Tril> mostly theCPU does the "idle" task...
<IMPO> will tunes have upgraded versions to be downloaded?
<Kaufmann> Tril, do you see what I mean about the dags?
<Tril> K: ok here's how  i would organize my system
<Tril> K: define a "module" as a set of objects, and a module group as a set of mutually exclusive modules
<Tril> K: Then have many orthogonal module groups.  Organization consists of putting various objects in various modules. End of story.
<Tril> K: If you can fit that into an "dag" then go for it
<Tril> K: I am not saying you can or can't.
<Tril> IMPO: sure.. i'd like kind of 'push' distribution for updates, actually
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-ip145-c16.tscnet.net])
<IMPO> push?
07:10pm
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<Tril> It's the opposite of http, for example. In http, you go out and grab information.
<Kaufmann> Tril, the abstract description notwithstanding, any actual layout of connected objects (whether you assume or not that modules are themselves objects - which they have to be, I think) will form a dag.
<Tril> In push, you select what kinds of information you want to receive, then when it is availalbe, it is automatically sent to you.
<IMPO> oh
<IMPO> sort of like simplified archie
<Kaufmann> ahhh, archie
<Tril> archie is an index
<IMPO> well you specify what you want
<IMPO> and it tells you whether or not anyone has it
<Tril> in a tunes-style distributed db, I'd expect people to do their own indexing as they added information to the db. 
<water> 9.6k connection
<water> :_(
<IMPO> what is the installation going to be like
<Tril> water: do you really get that much IRC traffic that it is noticable?
<Tril> IMPO: It's a virus installation like Tuxilla (j/k)
<Kaufmann> you see?
<Tril> K: I'm not sure WHY you are trying to make this point. Or what you mean by "actual layout"
<IMPO> ok this has all been very interesting, but i have held off going to the bathroom long enough
<IMPO> so i will be right back
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<_water> :_(
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-136.tscnet.net])
-:- _water is now known as water
<water> i haven't had connection problems like this in months
<IMPO> how will tunes handle removable storage devices
<Kaufmann> Tril, I'm not sure why I'm trying to make this point either :) By "actual layout" I mean an actual set of the objects that make up a specific system, abstracted up to the graph level (i.e., nodes and links).
<water> impo: as back-up or as a communication device
<IMPO> as back-up
<water> as both
<Tril> removable ?  Shouldnt all devices be "removable"?
<IMPO> well i am not interested in both
<IMPO> what i was referring to 
<water> but tunes must be
<Tril> K: There's no reason to make the "acyclic" restriction, then.
<IMPO> was how files are to be represented
<IMPO> in the equivalent of say a floppy drive
<water> impo: representation is dynamically-chosen
<IMPO> well where those files exist on the floppy
<IMPO> when you remove it
<IMPO> does that set of files no longer exist
<IMPO> or are they resident until something replaces them
07:20pm
<IMPO> say, a null reply for each one
<IMPO> or a new disk
<water> impo: what are you asking?
<Kaufmann> Tril, I guess not... it's just that a) dags are computationally manageable, whereas cyclic graphs generally aren't; b) dags are, generally speaking, the most useful (for programming purposes) kind of graph
<water> impo: low-level stuff is chosen dynamically
<IMPO> ok the files are arranged in an array right?
<Tril> each object can be stored multiple places.. if the only copy of it is on the disk, it will be treated as on the disk- perhaps when you go to access it, it says to insert the disk... does that help?
<water> impo: they're arranged according to a chosen saved scheme
<water> _dynamically_ chosen
<IMPO> yes tril
<water> ahhh, simplistic answers
<Tril> but if you have another copy on the hdd, it can read that one..while still realizing there's another copy on that disk
<Tril> then you want to establish rules for the relationship of the multiple copies..
<IMPO> so in effect you can store several files with the same variable names in one area
<IMPO> will files have extensions to determine their purpose?
<Tril> is one copy prioritized? i.e. one is a backup of the other? Or is it OK to modify them separately?  Then you can write rules for resolving simultaneous updates
<Tril> IMPO: no, no extensions ,and probably not files either
<water> files? extensions?
<water> i thought we were talking about tunes
<IMPO> then what is information stored in?
* water/#tunes recommends people try out a smalltalk system
<IMPO> how is it broken up
<Tril> IMPO: abstract containers, with properties you decide
<Tril> do you want to store a stream of bytes? Fine, you can do that.
<Tril> But if it's a database you really prefer storing an unordered set of "records"...
<Kaufmann> IMPO, how is information broken up in a programming language?
<Tril> not necessarily  a file
<Tril> (Btw database is just as obsolte as "file")
<Tril> the whole system is one database..
<water> a "reflective" one
<Kaufmann> IMPO, that's what we meant by fine-grained
<water> (i must harp on that point)
<Tril> water: i thought you said to stop using "reflection" without qualification
<water> well...
<IMPO> is this area of tunes documented?
<IMPO> i have looked all over the site
<IMPO> but only found some brief explanations in the glossary
<water> tril: not sure how to qualify it for a newbie to understand
<Tril> reflection is the ability of a program to obtain the state of its interpreter
<Tril> and to modify it, effecting changes on itself
<water> like it's implementation
<Tril> in general the term reflection encompasses both actions, which are individually called reification (introspection) and reflection (intercession)
<IMPO> so to put it in terms of current systems for clarity
<IMPO> if i wanted to modify a binary executable i could do so directly
<Tril> its implementation, or more mundane things like its variables- I heard using reflection to define ALL language constructs made the language simpler
<IMPO> without having to modify the source, recompile, and replace
<Kaufmann> IMPO, putting it in terms of current systems is pointless...
<Kaufmann> ... I think
<IMPO> yes i had a feeling you would comment on that kaufmann
<water> brb
<Tril> IMPO: In fact you would modify the binary by modifying the source... and then the recompile and replcae would happen automatically.
<IMPO> so each binary is merely the source
<Tril> the binary still exists..it's just understood to be the cached output of a compiler run on the source.
07:30pm
<water> termed "hyper" programming
<IMPO> all right
<water> back
<IMPO> well
<Tril> So what we're doing is designing a language that makes source code easy to be programmatically modified... current languages don't make that easy.
<IMPO> the file-system, or lack of one, is what i really cannot comprehend
<Tril> (LISP does to an extent..but not enough)
<IMPO> everything else is rather cut and dry
<Tril> IMPO: What is the structure of information inside a file? From the perspective of the program using the file?
<Tril> Some files are lists of records..
<IMPO> it is different for each file
<IMPO> that is why they are generally classified by type
<Tril> The point is each record and each member of a record is visible to the whole system.. so every program can understand the file, not just programs written to use that file type
<Kaufmann> I've been thinking about a way to make my lisp NL-neutral... I've done it by abolishing strings as unique indices in the symbol tables. If you're working in Japanese, you'll define a string of 16-bit Unicode characters, and link it to the same entry in the symbol table to which a programmer working in English might link, say, the ASCII string "define".
<Tril> K: Unicode is not enough for all languages you know
-:- SignOff jdube_: #TUNES (Ping timeout for jdube_[216.41.73.128])
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-ip84-b19.tscnet.net]: No route to host)
<Kaufmann> Of course, most of this will already come bundled with the system, so you'll just have to tell it what language you'll be using, and define strings in other languages as "special", and link those to the appropriate string->symbol databases.
<Kaufmann> Tril, why not? But it's just a matter of expanding the definition anyway.
<Tril> IMPO ...?
<IMPO> huh?
<IMPO> are you asking me if i'm here or if i follow you
<Tril> IMPO: do you understand my answer about files?
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<IMPO> yes
<Kaufmann> LOL! Dennis Ritchie is listed in the Plan 9 index page under "Overhead"
<IMPO> i think it will take awhile for it all to sink in
<Tril> IMPO: There's no reason to use notion of "file".. it can all be small objects floating in a persistent store- that you can take references directly to.
<Kaufmann> Hmmm... universal references
<IMPO> but how can you refer to a specific "object" without giving it some sort of declaration
<IMPO> do you refer to it by its address
<Tril> References are handled automatically
<Kaufmann> What do you mean by declaration?
<Tril> All you know is you have an object that contains a reference...
<IMPO> well ok say i have a list of names of people
<IMPO> and i want to refer to that list
<Tril> and that you can use a function to access the object referred to
<IMPO> how would i tell a program where the list is
* water/#tunes thinks that smalltalk would be a good example for all of this
<IMPO> or what it is
<Tril> IMPO: the list is stored in the persistent store
07:40pm
<Tril> IMPO: you can only access it through a reference.
<IMPO> but how do you make that reference
<Tril> IMPO: when you created the list, you got a reference back to it. 
<Tril> IMPO: and you had to use that reference any time you wanted to do anything to the list.
<IMPO> but the list itself is not independent of any other list, or any other information
<IMPO> it is all in a stack of data that is referenced in sections?
<water> define "independent"
<IMPO> broken up
<water> impo: familiar with garbage collection?
<IMPO> ...
<water> i'll take that as a "no"
<IMPO> i'm going to have to go with no
<IMPO> do you mean as in the men who take trash from your curb
<IMPO> or women
<water> GC exists for languages where memory allocation for data is implicit... automatic for the most part
<Kaufmann> In my lisp system, you'd just define the list and give it a name (possibly under some module), like "My names"... then whenever you want to talk about the list, you'd just call something like (find :in "My names" :key "Kaufmann"), or something. You won't actually have to save it by hand as you do today; the compiler will store it as necessary or appropriate. Of course, in the list definition you can add an attribute like !store; you can do anythin
<water> eek
<Tril> in tunes, skip the part about giving it a name
<Kaufmann> (cont'd) from defining where precisely in the HD you want it to be, from just allowing the compiler to choose.
<Tril> (naming is optional)
<Kaufmann> Tril, of course, you can also keep it anonymous
<Tril> K: You can still take references to anonymous objects
<Tril> which work just as well as names
<water> tril: yes, but it is often very confusing, as i have learned from Self discussions
<Kaufmann> Actually, the symbol table entry itself holds only a reference to the value, and not the actual value, so it's a moot point.
<Tril> K: and that's why you can have multiple symbol tables, multiple names, etc
<Kaufmann> Tril, exactly.
>>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@dial237.infolink.com.br] requested PING 939437409 from #tunes
<Kaufmann> Whoa.
07:50pm
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-ip84-b19.tscnet.net])
-:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (To hell with it, I'm leaving!)
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<_water> ping?
<abi> pong!
<_water> :P
<Tril> pang
-:- _water is now known as water
<water> why tonight?
<water> of all nights, the one when i get a good chance to talk to tril?
<IMPO> wow the main user is referred to as God
<IMPO> that will fulfill my weekly egotism requirements each time i turn on the machine
<Tril> IMPO: main user in what system?
<Tril> (besides the universe, I mean)
<IMPO> the tunes project
* Tril/#TUNES pictures impo turn on the universe and enter his password at the God Login
<IMPO> i was going to say super-user
<IMPO> but that is a faux pas
<IMPO> hehe
<Tril> where do you see this?
<IMPO> the tunes glossary
<Tril> under what term
<IMPO> God
<IMPO> God
<IMPO> Considering a system or universe, anyone that has power to defy the laws of the universe is a God. 
<IMPO> Then of course a God does not exist inside the considered universe, but in some outer greater universe, even though he might constantly show his presence through perpetual miracles (see input/output). He may also do punctual miracles, but these are completely beyond understanding from inside the system (as a corollary, anything that's not completely beyond understanding is not a miracle; and subsystems 
<Tril> oh. well, that glossary isnt necessarily about TUNES
<Tril> It's about definitions of words that may be somewhat related
<IMPO> Particularly, the human user who can shutdown a computer is a God to the computer programs running on the computer. Thus, in TUNES terminology, we use this appropriate term where other people talk about "super-user" 
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<Tril> What if my programs are atheists?
<IMPO> then you will have to be a cruel and vengeful god
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Read error to water[ppp-ip110-b45.tscnet.net]: No route to host)
<_water> tril: you can use an adt to define a set, as in peano's axioms -> natural numbers
<Tril> IMPO: consider that definition Fare's personal opinion, not as TUNES dogma.
<_water> tril: a set can also define an adt
-:- _water is now known as water
<IMPO> name your computer Salem, Massachusetts
<Tril> IMPO: Besides, there are no official words for any parts of the tunes system
08:00pm
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-ip110-b45.tscnet.net])
<air> my god, onsale packs their drives to withstand anything
08:10pm
<IMPO> are there permissions for any specific sets of data in TUNES?
<Tril> ?
<IMPO> such as
<Tril> security as in access/deny is another orthogonal property of the system
<IMPO> certain users cannot read or write to certain parts of the information stored on the computer
<Tril> you control seurity for each object orthogonally
08:20pm
<air> how do u format a new drive in win98?
<IMPO> a new drive?
<Tril> air: My Computer, right click drive, hit Format
<air> the drive isnt in my computer
<Tril> then your computer can't format it, can it
<Tril> air: does it have partitions?
<IMPO> i hate how windows9x only reads fat partitions
<Tril> run fdisk, then select "Change Fixed disk" to find it
<Tril> create a partition, reboot, then you will be able to see it in My Computer
<Tril> IMPO: not true, you can get drivers to read other fs'
<IMPO> really?
<air> Tril: it should come with those drivers tho
<Tril> i think so
<IMPO> that would save a lot of time
<IMPO> i'm tired of rebooting to mount other partitions
<air> wtf, the drive is in my computer
<air> its a 20meg drive
<Tril> air: I thought you knew about hardware
<air> i do
<Tril> air: Master/slave jumpers, having the right CHS in BIOS, etc
<Tril> does the bios detect the drive
<air> the bios detects em as 1.2gig which is correct but suck98 sees 20meg
<air> i think they have DDO on them
<Tril> boot the drive up and find out
<Tril> linux reads DDO's automatically
<air> why the hell would seagate only put a 20meg partition on this drive?
<IMPO> maybe it's the mbr
<air> eh?
<Tril> yoiu .. need.. to.. look at the drive in linux!
08:30pm
<IMPO> master boot record
<IMPO> it lists the operating systems etc on the entire drive
<IMPO> the one on this computer is like
<IMPO> 37 megs
<air> Tril: why?
<Tril> 1. Linux shows the entire partition table (Windows may not show all partitions)
<IMPO> yeah
<Tril> 2. Linux can handle more partition types (WIndows doesnt)
<IMPO> just type df
<air> 1. I just fdisked the drive so it has a 1.2gig partition
<air> 2. It works fine
<Tril> well, good
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<water> yes!!!!!
<water> anyone still here?
<IMPO> hi
<water> Tril?
<abi> somebody said Tril was logged onto 12 different terminals :\
<IMPO> elgato did
<IMPO> i saw that log
<IMPO> that was quite a few weeks ago wasn't it
<water> yep
08:40pm
<water> "i want my TCP" :)
<IMPO> i am in some of those logs
<IMPO> i was in one under my dalnet name of MiB81
<IMPO> of course dalnet is a horrible network
<water> hmm
<IMPO> so i do not use it anywhere else
<water> yes
<IMPO> as so no one recognizes me
<IMPO> i cannot stand networks with such large amounts of users
<IMPO> i used to go on relicnet until lusers hit 1000
-:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[tnt-9-11.tscnet.net])
08:50pm
<Tril> I am here.. next time water comes back tell him to /MSG me so that this terminal will beep
<IMPO> ok
<air> oh great, onsale.com just received a UPS exception :)
<air> ups lost my other 2 drives
09:00pm
<air> dipshits
<Tril> some UPS drivers simply dont know their way around town
<Tril> (from experience, one company had to repeat the order to UPS 3 times before they showed up to pick up at my house)
09:10pm
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<air> heh
<air> this was an incorrect routing problem so my drives could be in china right now
09:20pm
* Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off]
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-:- SignOff IMPO: #TUNES (Ping timeout for IMPO[p09-39.hartford.dialin.ntplx.com])
-:- lskjfslkfjd is now known as IMPO
-:- SignOff Zhivago: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff IMPO: #TUNES (Leaving)
-:- SignOff air: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep)
[msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.1009
IRC log ended Sat Oct  9 00:00:01 1999