IRC log started Sat Sep 25 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0925 -:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp161.lvdi.net] has left #tunes [] 12:10am bah -:- SignOff liar: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) 12:20am -:- smoke [smoke@14dyn134.delft.casema.net] has joined #Tunes -:- Sweety [user3938@194.153.64.232] has joined #Tunes hey! Does some1 want to chat? ok! bye, then! -:- Sweety [user3938@194.153.64.232] has left #Tunes [] 05:30am -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- eihrul [eihrul@usr5-ppp161.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1033.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- NetSplit: heinlein.openprojects.net split from hogan.openprojects.net [11:28am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [heinlein.openprojects.net] -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (brb) -:- fare_ [fare@d026.paris-121.cybercable.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff fare_: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre1.400 -- This is the default quit message.) -:- SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Connection reset by pear) -:- fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff smoke: #TUNES (brb) -:- core [core@mcp.suntech.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (good idea ) core: are you here yet? :) bonne question 01:30pm -:- tmf [s720@veggedyr.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes hi lo -:- fare is now known as Fare fare, have you read about UA? which UA? Yuri Guskov's programming language Uniform Abstract language I read the page at the original announcement, but there was not much there at the time well, it looks interesting it's a neat oo language without the traditional oo feel btw: what is your stand on electronic currency? 01:40pm tmf: where at? (ua) http://www.geocities.com/ResearchTriangle/Facility/2320/ua/ -:- tmf [s720@veggedyr.ii.uib.no] has left #tunes [] 01:50pm -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.112] has joined #tunes Yee-haw! hi fare -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Kaufmann[200.224.105.112]) 02:00pm -:- fab [fab@ppp-168-213.villette.club-internet.fr] has joined #tunes 'lo :) 02:10pm is there any human being out there ? yup depends lol okay Tril: core proposes to host a french tunes mirror... My friend and I just wanted to know is there any source code available for what you're doing ? Fare: OK well, apparently not fab: there's source for retro depends on who "we" are -:- SignOff core: #TUNES (ircII EPIC4pre2.001-NR3 -- This is *not* the default quit message) -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #tunes we mean : are there written things for TUNES . people hi ? fab: i wrote a poem. lol :))) in which language ? natural or not ? scheme i'll let you decide if it's natural :P core: so what was the synchronization scheme? eihrul: ok, first the guy is the chief of the venusians.. i like him a lot :) rmmm... pun not intended eihrul: like 55 years old but still writing assembler on paper before testing it. core : it is, certainly eihrul: and i'll tell you the details when i read the 150 pages of doc he gave me :P electric media or paper? eihrul: paper :/ eihrul: like, you know, analogue media :) shoot he is very annoying in that he used to know a guy called trip hawkins :) 02:20pm how long do you estimate it will take you read all 150 pages? -:- fab is now known as nico_fab mmm.. 20 minutes ) :) small pages? ptain, encore un francais :) eihrul: no, i just read the essential bits :) We both study computer science, and were really interested in what you wrote on your tunes.org www he oui ! des francais i just maintain the OS review bit. Fare a good share of the content on tunes.org but, as humans, we'd like to see what it looks like, even if it's not finished abi: X from fr he oui ! des francais Tril: He yes! of the French abi: you suck core : so, you maintain eh OS review section of the web page. What is the current state of your project ? forget abour the "eh" nico_fab: 'my' project? forget about the "about" take a deep breath :) your is to be understood as a plural pronoun so do we * core/#tunes takes a deep breath too * nico_fab/#tunes take a deeeeeeeeeeeep breath where's my klingon translator already ah, there it is. well, go ahead * Tril/#TUNES gasses the room with joker gas okay, i'm not technically a member of tunes per se, as most people in this channel, but we exchange ideas and they might use "my" project as one of the possible bases core: also, found an available copy of bonwick's paper sitting on MIguel de Icaza's site and have hence started to implement core : okay as of 'tunes', there is no structured implementation at this point, just a lot of ideas and some bits, thanks notably to Tril, water and fare. eihrul: cool, where is it? i have the usenix one, but i'd like to put up a free one for other people outside of suntech is it such a "larva" project ? thanks man ) :) (eirhul that is :) ( it's not kind to tell it that way, sorry) nico_fab: it's okay :) well, it's an academic project of sorts i guess. so it takes time no doubt about that well wow, i got mail from RMS, ESR and DJ delorie on the same day, i only miss linus to have a complete portfolio :P we would have liked to see bits of code write it :) core: for what? eihrul: hmm? :) core : sure but what ? i think but is has a calendar. abi: forget but core: I forgot but core: how come you're getting all the cool mail? eihrul: oh, i wrote to them in the first place, but at different times, and they all answered today :) why would someone mail ESR? okay so what can we write ? eihrul: to get advice about guns? *shrug* :) nico_fab: mmm, design a LLL, a HLL, a working prototype of O'TOP, then a working prototype of a boostrapped implementation? 02:30pm is there to say that there's nothing to write ? nico_fab: no, everything is to be written. you say that so enthusiastically eihrul: i'm just kidding, that's why. there must be a beginning... eihrul: seriously though, i had emailed him like 6 months ago about something unimportant, and he replied. as for RMS, I met a friend of him in Paris and I was also offering him european hosting for hurd developers and such, that he accepted apparently, and as for DJ, we host delorie.com :) nico_fab: the issue is that those various parts are mostly interdependent and it's a sort of chicken and egg problem who's the chicken then ? nico_fab: there already are several bootstrapped environments that could be used for Tunes, so if you want to participate you might want to try the O'TOP route nico_fab: i'd say the HLL core: i'm surprised hurd hasn't died yet earth to tril, come in tril what do all those acronyms stand for ? eihrul: *shrug* why should it die? it's free. it uses Mach eihrul: the more, the better. i seriously hope that Hurd, *bsd, Retro, EMK and all have a bright future is retro a real, viable, basis for you ? emk and hurd could be possibly complementary... eihrul: unfortunately yes, fortunately it's not married with Mach, so I still have hope they'll ditch it for something else someday (it's designed so that you can replace the uK) eihrul: right. that would be awesome :) as hurd is just a colleciton of daemons that run on top of a microkernel well, should the name of this place be "#hurd" then ?, nico_fab: well, retro bootstraps into a forth interpreter. if forth was to be the LLL, why not. there is a whole lot of work to be done on retro, but considering tcn did most of it himself, why not. what's a LLL, please ? a LLL is probably Low level language oui nico_fab: tunes is also a group of people who like to exchange ideas about system design, if you don't like it, *shrug* i don't care. nico: the definition for LLL, HLL, O'TOP etc. is in the glossary at tunes.org, depicted by Fare better than I could TUNES is actually an extremely talky OS houston calling tril, come in tril eihrul: right.. that's what i was saying. you could set yourself as a goal, to make Hurd run on top of EMK, this way you would validate its functionality :-) core: hrmm, i'd have to study the hurd closely then to see exactly what it demands of the microkernel and that would set me back a bit eihrul: it's pretty standard. there's actually a really poor taime i've never seen a microkernel operating system before... core: so i don't really know what a standard one looks like nico_fab: huh? core: i've just seen microkernels.... eihrul: mm, well, L4 is probably a better example *shrug* :) well, Tunes is nothing more than a FAQ L4 is a microkernel, not a mk-os that's a pity, that looked quite interesting well let's turn back to woding, then core: but i have to do a complete kernel rewrite to support thread migration, so i don't think it'd be a bad idea to look hurd over 02:40pm -:- SignOff nico_fab: #TUNES (we quit(I mean, we) ==> reflection) eihrul: geez, so you're going to support it after all? sorry i put that idea in your mind :) they're to (sic) lame to read bitchx.doc, huh. that and the slab allocator have deprecated all of my kernel you really need to give me ideas up front eihrul: sorry :/ before i start working :) that way i don't have to do all these rewrites every time you come in the channel grrrr! core: salut! salut fare ! kwa29? * Fare/#Tunes is wasting time installing a machine for an uncle fare: j'ai rencontre tony tabby (le mec qui a pondu le sinclair QL, et un pote de celui qui a pondu tripos puis amigaos :) fare: clementine avance encore, suntech aussi, et notre serveur 'open' est en ligne fare: et on heberge dj delorie :) core: so i'm going to wait till you finish reading that synchronizaiton paper before i start anything :) core: et clementine? eihrul: haha.. sorry, i shouldn't tell you anything else :P core: no, i like rewriting it :) i learn a new thing every time ah, still have hurd 0.2 lying around sequence de boot sur HD d'abord? eihrul: i'm sorry, i don't want to influence you.. do it your own way.. not everything other people do is good :) eihrul: the sync primitive is unimportant retro works on my uncle's new PIII! 02:50pm does clem? :) core: is clem now publicly available? fare: no :/ step 1 of 2 (setting up the free software server) is completed tho :) fare: step 1.5 (getting clementine to boot normal, nonnetworked, simple unix applications) is almost done step 2 will be just after that :) a complete prototype to play with. * Fare/#Tunes compiles latest clementine -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has left #Tunes [] core: you're only influencing me so far as you're telling me ideas which are think are better than my current ideas core: and to that end, i don't mind rewriting things er, which I think eihrul: i mind making you question yourself and putting you further away from your goal of making a prototype uK though it's ok, my mind is equipped with regex :) eihr: what are your current ideas? core: that was never my goal core: to quote a nissan commercial, "Enjoy the ride." eihrul: well, learning is, right? :) indeed, the microkernel is a side-goal i shouldn't code while watching abs fab Fare: a traditional microkernel... very bland ideas indeed eihrul: well, perhaps me throwing ideas at you isn't the best way to help you learn :) if you don't throw ideas at me, who is going to? eihrul: did you read my take on 焰? yes core: i have no other sources to get this information from, aside from blindly looking for it on google or somesuch eihrul: the OS review has some info :) eihrul: i didn't have the slab allocator to put up since it wasn't a free doc, but now thanks to you i will. * eihrul/#tunes wishes he were in college already. free text books what does it have to do with having ideas (sorry fare :-) er wait... they're not free -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes eihrul: why do you still do a 焰, then? and how does it differ from VSTa or L4? just to learn how to make one 03:00pm why not learn how to make a tetris in turing machine instead? fare: if you still want a .fr mirror of tunes, my home is your home. which will be approximately as useful, and much more fun core: I sure do fare: whenever you'll want it (i had emailed, but..) core: yes but you emailed in french, so forwarding to Tril was difficult :) fare: i emailed tril in english, too :) oh! that didn't seem to move him much tho :) Fare: simply because i didn't start doing that -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #tunes -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-95.ici.net] has joined #tunes hey core hey downix! :-) what's up? downix: i met tony tabby :-) who? the guy who wrote the OS of the sinclair QL :) i didn't know his name either :) what is he doing, nowadays? oh, cool * Fare/#Tunes doesn't know about the OS of the QL; only knows that it was a nice 68008 CPU you know, the revolutionary, multitasking, 68000-based OS before the amiga times. fare: QDOS (that OS) was incredible for the time. the 68008 wasn't too impressive, the 68000 was better. heck, i've seen 68020-based QLs :-) Downix: for an "8-bit" CPU, it was! fare: he's writing drivers as freelance :/ and working for suntech in a few weeks :-) Fare: it was a 32-bit BPU w/ an 8-bit bus, but yeah erm, CPU externally, it was ordinary 8-bit hardware! yup cheaper to make a system for it too bad there was so little software for it yup well, devpac, the bitmap brothers and all, debuted on the QL. 03:10pm also, did it have a floppy or something better than a tape? yup fare: there are floppies for it; but it shipped with the infamous microdrive :) microdrive? fare: microtape drives I remember those those sucked bigtime :) The sinclair was nice, but it wasn't well thought out he isn't responsible for that crap tho, he just wrote the OS :) the microdrive as a prime example yep core the guy is completely nuts, ie. "one like us". 55 years old or somesuch and still writing assembler on paper. hehe, sounds like a fun guy he is. i loved listening to him, even just for his english accent sounds better than these idiots who can't even figure out assembler he compiles code by hand.. writes in pseudocode then writes it himself :) nice he brought 20 volumes of his current toy OS project on ARM7 :) core: writing assembler on paper is handy... especially when you don't have access to a computer (i.e. school) :) oh man * Downix/#tunes drafts chip designs on a doodle pad you would get along :-) hehe guess so I can't get HDL down pat, but hand-drawing works for me it's okay, i love people who don't think like others; dunno why your brain patterns must work like this, don't force it another way :) hehe, I can also make out schematics with XPaint kinda freaks people out it probably freaks them out you can do ANYTHING with XPaint :) hehe -:- SignOff smkl: #TUNES (Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?) like my accountant's son can draw awesome pictures in MS Paint, that's scary. hey, I love hand-drafting (he's 7 or somesuch) I can do some freaky stuff with M$ paint i can do a box and write "i'm happy" in it that's about it I do CAD work in M$ Paint what about with sed and xpm? okay, thats scary :) lol eihrul of course it freaks me out when I loose a piece of paper that I drafted on one time I lost an entire ALU circuit can just as easily lose that work on a computer actually it's probably easier to lose work on a computer fare, write tunes already :) -:- smkl [sami@glubimox.yok.utu.fi] has joined #tunes yup I photocopy everything kernel bugs corrupting the file system, crashes losing unsynced changes to the file system, modifying the same file in different editors at once... I found the ALU later on i am dangerously converting myself to emacs; this has to stop! from what? from what what? :) from what editor? -:- ElGato` [no@209-68-229-131.dialup.cust.tfb.com] has joined #tunes hi hey mr. gato! emacs is nice i just got back from my cross country meet core!!! 03:20pm eihrul: nedit if under X, joe on the console usually. (i know, i'm weird) :) try vim i send you an email on fpu emulation a while ago and never got a response try pico kiddies vim stinks, I like xemacs Downix: have you tried gvim? vim *shudder* :) i couldn't use vi if my life depended on it damnit i gotta write an essay on the similarities of the communitive and associative properties but incidentally guillaume's getting clementine to run it :P what a waste of time im glad im being switched to geometry eihrul: Nope I can use VI and VIM, but I don't like it Downix: has a cutesy gui in an attempt to match xemacs vi makes my 486 freeze eihrul: k ElGato`: did you try using valid commands? yeah well, i can use vi, but it's a sensation akin to eating razorblades :) what advantage does vi give you over normal editors? elgato: faster loss of hair :) :D and faster load time... good if you live in xterminals and the reflex of pressing 'i' everytime you want to talk to someone hahaha hehe ihello iimean hello that isn't an advantage core: newer vim's are much better... the insert mode is comparable to the emacs mode some like that :) core: Make that double edged razorblades, and I'll agree core: er emacs edit modes downix: ouch :) i like pico you can move the cursor over lines et al pico -w is usable pico is nice * ElGato`/#tunes placed 88th in his race today :D hey guess what, i had a "lengua burrito" today it's cow toung :D 03:30pm eww quite good 03:40pm impo go onto roger wilco on my ip er wrong channel :( 04:00pm hehe well. hi fare you hot hunk of european love! bof, vu que t'es sur l'internet, meme si y en a pas, le client peut se debrouiller oops pas grave :) BOF, considering that are to you on the Internet, same does not have so there, the customer can debrouiller 04:10pm -:- binEng [Anders@j141.ryd.student.liu.se] has joined #tunes -:- Netjoined: heinlein.openprojects.net hogan.openprojects.net -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #Tunes hi core -:- NetSplit: heinlein.openprojects.net split from verne.openprojects.net [04:45pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [heinlein.openprojects.net] -:- iepos [iepos@d28.k1-2.tecinfo.com] has joined #TUNES hi hi what command do I use to compress all files in a directory? my swedish friend :D heh :) tar -czf foo.tar.gz dir 04:50pm thanks can I check if all files were included in some easy way? like, listing the files in the tar? tar -tzf foo.tar.gz the -t option lists the contents It would take substantial time to learn all the useful commands and switches :( only a few useful ones to know -x extracts, -f selects a file, -t lists, -c creates, -z runs the file through gzip (dependent on action being done) hmm.. that doesn't sound so hard the rest you can search for the manpage for :) er search through ok, I should go to sleep now. cya night -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES ( ) -:- core [core@core.suntech.fr] has joined #Tunes hey core core: stay.... fuck, i'm really pissed if our upstream network isn't secure, that's wonderful. hey again downix :) hey eihrul again :) oh fun core: did you see my messages before you got kicked/or quit/or whatever? eihrul: some of them yeah 05:00pm we all love core why? :) he is our illegitimate father ssssh! and fare is our illegitimate mother you promised not to tell! er.... sorry :O hehe * Downix/#tunes is your illegitimate father's cousins brothers former roomate lol downix :) That's Dark Downix to you!