IRC log started Wed Sep 8 00:00:01 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0908 what was the address of this service where you subscribe people who say "remove me" on mailing-lists? 06:00am ah! found it! abi: clueless is at http://dazed.slacker.com/lists/clueless.html -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [06:42am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #Tunes 06:50am -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us126.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- NetSplit: heinlein.openprojects.net split from verne.openprojects.net [08:25am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [heinlein.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: heinlein.openprojects.net verne.openprojects.net -:- fare [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us126.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o fare] by devlin.openprojects.net -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- MAxD [m.dentico@a101.teseo.it] has joined #tunes hello people 11:10am -:- MAxD [m.dentico@a101.teseo.it] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net]) -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff eihrul: #TUNES (Ping timeout for eihrul[usr5-ppp162.lvdi.net]) -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Ping timeout for hcf[me-portland-us126.javanet.com]) -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1034.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- MAxD [m.dentico@a101.teseo.it] has joined #tunes -:- MAxD [m.dentico@a101.teseo.it] has left #tunes [] -:- Downix [down@d-gnaps-123.ici.net] has joined #tunes -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250127.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey pyro hey.. what's going on? nada mucho, about to go cash my paycheck and pick up my car from the garage -:- liar [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hey liar hey later downix which is better, opendos or freedos? opendos is 100% functional, freedos isn 't and it's got multitasking & networking, right? oh cool one of my neighbors just got run over i gotta go see yup bbiaf i'm looking for something small to put on my crappy old machines heh.. I wiped out my 486's HD yesterday, that's 2 in the same week. (did a typo while testing retro's direct HD writes :) 02:40pm -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250067.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250088.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes man, that's weird.. my isp never disconnects me like that 02:50pm that was kewl a face print in the windsheild of a car looks kewl -:- eihrul [lee@usr5-ppp210.lvdi.net] has joined #tunes 03:00pm -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ hey tril hum -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has left #tunes [brb] -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ ok hi -:- SignOff Downix: #TUNES ([BX] Hrm... I wonder if I paid this month's electr...EOF From client) lo * fare/#Tunes just inherited 1100 CDs -:- fare is now known as Fare1100 03:20pm sucks to be u -:- SignOff Tril: #TUNES (BitchX-75+Deb1an -- just do it.) -:- Tril [dem@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #TUNES -:- mode/#Tunes [+o Tril] by ChanServ 03:30pm are the 1100 cds any good? -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [03:36pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare1100 [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1034.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250088.clarityconnect.net] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Fare1100] by forward.openprojects.net !forward.openprojects.net!! Received :sterling.openprojects.net SERVER hogan.openprojects.net from sterling.openprojects.net !?! !devlin.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT zsoldos.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo -:- NetSplit: forward.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [03:38pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [forward.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: forward.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250088.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes -:- Fare1100 [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1034.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Fare1100] by devlin.openprojects.net !devlin.openprojects.net!! Received :sterling.openprojects.net SERVER hogan.openprojects.net from sterling.openprojects.net !?! 03:40pm * Tril/#TUNES is away: (afk) [BX-MsgLog Off] -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. Timestamp problems, we should resync in a moment or two 8) -:- NetSplit: devlin.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [03:41pm] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [devlin.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: devlin.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net -:- Fare1100 [fare@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #Tunes -:- abi [nef@bespin.dhs.org] has joined #Tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us1034.javanet.com] has joined #Tunes -:- ServerMode/#Tunes [+o Fare1100] by forward.openprojects.net -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Problems seem to be resolved. Thanks for your patience. 8) anyone know what the last version of opendos is? justasec i'll get it or maybe just look yourself 04:10pm did caldera sell it? ls ahh here we go, dj delorie has an opendos page wrong window ;) there is no opendos on caldera.com? not easily found, anyway * eihrul/#tunes wishes he had disassembled QNX source right about now... hmm.. nevermind, it's not good enough to bother with * Fare1100/#Tunes is back well, anyone know of a TCP/IP stack for DOS? I just want to connect to my linux/bsd machines over ethernet latest opendos is 7.02 or such. But boycott it and use FreeDOS instead there are TCP/IP stacks for it, but why not use Linux or VSTa, then? i just used one i found off simtel... the opendos one wouldn't run well in finite memory but that was years ago 04:20pm will VSTa run on a 486 w/ 4 MB ram? sure better than DOS, I guess maybe I'll give it a try retro won't? :) retro isn't complete enough yet make it so! I dunno if lynx has been ported to VSTa, tho eihrul: retro doesn't have a TCP/IP stack... yet in due time fare: he can always rip one from *insert some operating system with source code to tcp/ip stack here* one reason I'm setting up a home LAN is so I can test retro on it * Fare1100/#Tunes faces the dreaded fdisk prompt once again I've got the whole internet specs on my HD.. oops, the dead one :) so, how am I going to split this 16G disk? 16G? crazy 4/4/4/4 that's a waste eihrul: why crazy? It optimized my bit/buck ratio when I got a HD the other day, I took the smallest they had.. 3 gig if you're using linux, you only need a really small root partition, and you can make the other partitions larger split it 1/1/1 3G is too small to split, these days ;-> fare: i can't even use my 2 gigger to fufillment er fulfillment if I get hired as a game programmer I guess I'll hafta get a 16G so I can run the latest games otherwise it's just little stuff like retro, dos, linux, bsd where's vsta? rumour has it vsta is a microkernel OS made by Andy Valencia (www.zendo.com/vsta) eihrul: you do not download gigs of sources, mp3, papers, web pages, books, etc pyro: Review/OSes.html#VSTa fare: was that a question? eihrul: it was a guess. Was it correct? i download lots of source code... but other than that, all correct 04:30pm most of it lies in tarballs, however, unless i'm actively digging through it -:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp373.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes * Fare1100/#Tunes decides to now mirror interesting sites instead of just choosing the interesting bits... possibly, I could hack the mirroring program to uncompress everything and use bzip2 instead does the difference between gzip and bzip2 really justify that? not if you have 16G eihrul: most stuff is compressed with compress, if at all remember: these are mostly stupid web pages. 04:40pm -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (Ping timeout for pyro[cci-209150250088.clarityconnect.net]) Fare1100: mirror all of slashdot, including old comments as far back as they go * eihrul/#tunes suddenly feels like removing all methods of security from his microkernel... eihrul: what "security" was that? Tril: I'll be mirroring the whole internet... access rights to services exported by the microkernel and a few other miscellaneous things * Fare1100/#Tunes doesn't trust low-level access rights. i read your post :) Tril: what do you recommend, for partitioning? -:- Fare1100 is now known as Fare hum, 1100 plus 400, that makes me 1500... -:- pyro [tcn@cci-209150250131.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes 04:50pm grabbing vsta.. oops.. 120vac.. hmm, tingles :) vac? volts Ca vac is volts of alternating current cA, whatever not as bad as what you use in france :) uhh the US has the worst ac 60hz is closer to the resonant frequency of the human body (66hz) then the 50hz european ac is hehe interesting fact :) a 66hz signal will cause the muscles to contract and hold onto the wire that is why its hard to let go but 50hz is so far away that it doesnt activate any muscles and u can easily let go 05:00pm hmm. my modem is causing RFI with what and the closer u get to 66hz, the more damage it does to the tissue 66Hz? on FM radio I can hear it :) Fare: its the resonant frequency of the human body pyro put your case on :) that is what metal cases are for <_ruiner_> I'm not so sure I believe that it's external if u ever wanna kill/hurt someone with electricity make the frequency 66hz and u can use ALOT less voltage liar: how much does it change from person to person? ok, it's right next to the stereo and the antenna liar: or depending on circumstances? pyro: turn off the modem it would take alot to make it vary from person to person <_ruiner_> fare, thats not frequency liar: that's the resonant freq. of the muscles? <_ruiner_> its either current or voltage, I forget * _ruiner_/#tunes should pay more attention in school Tril: it's not severe ac is 60Hz and is not amps OR volts pyro: its the frequency of the chemical signals * Fare/#Tunes plays a 66Hz sound on the buzzer... ac 60Hz means the polarity reverses 60 times a second (electricity goes one way, then back the other) I guess the buzzer doesn't produce enough energy Fare: it produces mechanical energy <_ruiner_> ok, tril has just said something I know to be true, so I'll jump on his bandwagon would a pentium 2 doing stuff at 66Hz hurt me? Fare: dont be a dink how do you slow a pentium down 1 million times? <_ruiner_> possibly as you fall asleep and hit your head on the corner of your desk Tril: just do a 10 million counter loop (repeatedly) feed it a 66hz clock You can easily make an extra $ 500.00 or $ 1,000.00 extra per day with our program depending on your traffic. (jk.. it has a minimum frequency) $500/day and all i gotta do is put a banner up 05:10pm liar: how much per click To get more information write me at sitepromoter@mail.com or call 805 686-1806 why dont u ask him what % of web traffic is generated by spiders? I wonder if they click on ads... if u tell them to leave the site they will see ya cya gotta shut down -:- SignOff pyro: #TUNES (pyro has no reason) http://www.postage4free.com 05:20pm what port does pop3 use? and can i telnet into it? liar: less /etc/services Fare: already tried that 110 liar: telnet localhost pop-3 i have read mail by telnet to 110 before USER username PASS password LIST ah i was used pop3 it has help too run fetchmail -vv to a pop host and see what commands IT uses hmm i cant telnet to 110 but netscape wont send this happens once every couple months for about an hour ? when i try to send email in netscape it just sits there and wont send -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-235.m2-4.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes the pop3 server is running but it will be an hour before netscape will send liar: pop3 is not used for sending, only for getting mail. SMTP is used for sending oh ya, well smtp is working -:- SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-235.m2-4.sub.ican.net]: EOF from client) -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-235.m2-4.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes is yer DNS setup properly? uhh ya wtf.... people chatting are showing up in my server window... hmm.. how would dns cause it to not work for an hour every month or so -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-235.m2-4.sub.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-235.m2-4.sub.ican.net] has joined #tunes 05:30pm Hey all :) hi is it working B? wtf, my server isnt showing any traffic when i press send tril: Yeah seems to be fixed now, but it was kinda neat when it happened :) tril: I was out of all the chans on opn, but I was still getting Tunes chat on my server window :) Beholder: That's called desynchronization it is suppsoed to be rare Tril: Ahh, never had it happen before :) Tril: Thanks on the FreeBSD advice, it's taken way too much of my time, but I'm very close to having a good internet sharing mechanisim. Just need a slot-1 processor, and I'll have a dedicated server :) i dont remember why freebsd was better than linux for you, do you? NATD and PPP -alias... the alias library was better than the IPMASQ on Linux. I can verify that fact now, it works with everything :) hehe but you didn't try Linux 2.2 and ipchains? Nope, that one I didn't try yet. Is it much better? it's suppsoed to be, it is the replacement for the old ipmasq (ipfwadm) way in versions of linux before kernel 2.2. I haven't used any of them 05:40pm I'm also stuck with 2.0.x kernels because of my crappy network cards (they're unsupported in the 2.2.x kernels :( what? they took features out? Nope, it's the manufactuer that makes the drivers (binary only! :( I think hardware manufacturers are not getting the point of open source... they will if you dont buy network cards from them in the future But FreeBSD has support for the cards, and it works really well... I'm completly impressed with it. And no, never again will I buy from that company (or creative labs for that matter) hm..if fbsd has support then someone should port the driver to linux.. is it a binary driver for freebsd?? Yeah, I can't imagine it being all that difficult. It's the Via Rhine 1 chipset on a PCI card, Autonegotation. Linux has support for the Via Rhine 2 I think Tril: Nope, it's open in BSD... it's one of the standard kernel drivers * Tril/#TUNES naively thought all network cards had NE2000 emulation :) I can't blame the linux people... it's a bastardized chipset with very little number of cards that use it... And no... most cards are not NE2000 ;) Only the expensive ones have emulation :) Or the really cheap ones (which ARE NE2000) :) no, the expensive ones are not NE2000 only. Yeah, 3Com had their own chipset I think. I have an ISA 3Com lying around, but I'd rather stick to my 100Bt cards... What type of card do you use in Bespin? dec tulip pci Ahh, that's a nice one. Are you on bespin right now? 05:50pm i'm at the console Do you use X on it, or just text mode? in X right now Is Bespin still at the University? hmm, no it's been at nas.com since early 1998 What type of connection does it have? ISDN? frame relay. we're getting a dedicated T1 to sprint soon <_ruiner_> lucky abstard Tril: How much is this costing you? :( i'm actually an employee now it costs me work i have to do right now i'm writing a perl script to modify a db file Tril: So you admin the other servers at nas.com? well, i've setup a new news server that we're going to switch to soon running freebsd :) How do you like FreeBSD? In contrast to Debian? well, to compare to debian i'd need to try the FreeBSD Ports section, I dont think I installed it so I cant tell this time <_ruiner_> I don't like dselect the configuration is not too hard to figure out, linux is quite BSD-like Hehe, yeah the ports collection is huge. Easy to install to. I'm not big on dselect ;) 06:00pm <_ruiner_> its crap i think most people use apt-get now Tril: Is that menudriven? no just comand line, type apt-get install package (without version number) and it automatically downloads and installs or upgrades tthat package and any ones that it depends on. Tril: Wow, that's nicer than Dselect :) there is suposed to be a new interactive one but they are taking their sweet time making it (check the angel list for progress) Tril: Have you done any consulting for businesses thinking of using Unixies as an alternative? no i haven't Could you make a good argument if you had to? Or do you think it's valid in any case? i dont have NT experience so I can't compare them <_ruiner_> stable, free, fast...... and I hope to never get any, either !!! <_ruiner_> NT sucks Tril: NP... I have both, extensively now. You wouldn't like NT... it's frightening to say, but it's not as easy to configure as a Unix system is... <_ruiner_> the gui is an absolute hog <_ruiner_> and from what I'm told its a biznitch to program for, cuz of the api and security restrictions rui: Yep... why the hell does a server need a gui always running? Geeze... I do have experience (very little) programming Win32 api, that is awful rui: 24 megs to boot NT4 and most of that has to do with the GUI Tril: I learned everything from the Win32 perpective... Unix is so logical and simple for programming things. Do you know that the smallest DirectX program that does anything useful is almost 4 pages long? It's terrible. yes , i heard directx is a beast 06:10pm Even a KDE program can be made to be 8 lines... fyi atm I'm running xdm runlevel on bespin, so technically its GUI is always loaded, too. But it gets swapped out if it's not in use. Tril: If it doesn't hurt the performance, no big deal :) Tril: Which XDM lets you choose which window manager to load on login? in debian the window manager is chosen in /etc/window-managers (first one is default), I havent' gotten user-specific choices to work yet (not affecting any of my other users from figuring it out..but they probably dont login to X often remotely..) err, /etc/X11/window-managers Tril: Do you know of any X emulation software for Windows that's free? i use X-Win32, it is shareware with a 2 hour time limit (i never need to use it longer anyway) Tril: Is there anything I have to setup on the server end? I've never done an X remote before, is it can't be as simple as a telnet can it? Tril: does Win stay up that long, anyway? Fare: :) Not on my system. Well maybe if I don't touch it or run programs... Hmm... I have a bunch of trial copies of some X-Client software around here too... in a purple case... can't remember the company name though... I don't know... remember.. an X login is not the same as running one X program on another display Tril: Do you have a URL for that X-Win32? I can't seem to find it. abi x-win32? x-win32 is http://www.StarNet.com/ brb 06:20pm * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 2 hrs 41 min 48 secs So what does everyone think of the Sun graphical Dumb terminals they're trying to sell? -:- KorGrey [kor@pm-ppp95.triton.net] has joined #tunes hi * Tril/#TUNES opts out of this conversation to write code :) Hey Kor <_ruiner_> bad idea <_ruiner_> the more power I get at my desk and away from a central server, the better * KorGrey/#tunes came in the middle of something :/ someKorGreything? KorGrey: you only missed one line: So what does everyone think of the Sun graphical Dumb terminals they're trying to sell? * Tril/#TUNES is away: (0xf00d) [BX-MsgLog Off] oh, I c now :) 06:30pm Yeah, they looked cool, but don't see much difference from normal X dumb terminals Would the future of OS's be based on centralization agin... I doubt we will go back to centralization I think we will go towords embedded systems Yeah, I guess the whole point of the PC is the "personal" Beholder: marketing! that's a difference. Every few years, you have to find a new name for a product. Fare: Marketing what? X terminals. (maybe now "Java-enabled", although that sucks) Ahh :) Yes, make the consumers aware of existing technology, and make it sound new :) Fare: What are your views of the future? <_ruiner_> did you guys see the cuttingboard they had that was y2k compliant? Holy crap 20 ping... uggh <_ruiner_> it was some stupid piece of plastic with slots so you can cut bread....nothing more <_ruiner_> may as well have been a rock Hmm... 5 machines on a 28.8 connection... this has to stop :( 06:40pm Beholder: TUNES everywhere, of course -:- SignOff Beholder: #TUNES (Read error to Beholder[ppp-235.m2-4.sub.ican.net]: EOF from client) with a GPG-authentified USB device to configure every computer's FlashROM; else, an ethernet plug -:- SignOff KorGrey: #TUNES (Ping timeout for KorGrey[pm-ppp95.triton.net]) <_ruiner_> my view of the future isn't pretty no floppy, harddrive considered as an automatically managed commodity like RAM uniformized administration <_ruiner_> I see programmers becoming increasingly sloppy cuz advances in hardware make up for their inefficiencies <_ruiner_> I see the net becoming more commercialized <_ruiner_> I see gov't cracking down on content <_ruiner_> taxing the time you spend on here, as well as all purchases <_ruiner_> I see more companies who have no business in the software game coming out with stuff (Disney) I see people fighting for freedom, and the abolition of intellectual property <_ruiner_> I see M$ winning the browser war...and defining and redefining the html standard to keep others down -:- KorGrey [kor@pm-ppp149.triton.net] has joined #tunes :/ ISP cut me I see publishers and other IP-owners becoming irrelevant before their priviledges are abolished <_ruiner_> I see more products like vb...point and click programming I see people becoming more responsible and better valued, thanks to the emergence of strong service industries devoid of intellectual property I see a big frozen ball I can see AI escape that ball before it's frozen <_ruiner_> I see people unable to escape work, always being on call, expanding work days, expanding work weeks, shrinking pay ruiner: no, that can't and won't be it will happen without some sort of intervention individuality is already rare KG: it will happen with some sort of intervention -- we're *part* of the natural evolution. 06:50pm <_ruiner_> I see true programmers being gobbled up by corporations or shuffled off to the side, made irrelevant just not "external" intervention, because there's no "internal", and no "external". Fare: I said it wrong, you are correct <_ruiner_> its an employers market out there ruiner: I see true programmers grow slowly in number while a lot of false programmers step in. It will happen if people like us arent powerful enough to make another way survivable <_ruiner_> think about it...I'm not talking about getting a job <_ruiner_> I'm talking about how long and how hard one has to work I see the eventual end of intellectual property help clean the market of who's true and who's false. <_ruiner_> not enough people are willing to give up some money for a sweeter job....its getting *too* competitive ruiner: it's always and will always be competitive if intellectual property ceases to exist(which would require all of the worlds money to sleep) then things will change for the better competition is good. The problem is with privileges and monopolies. such as IP KG: not to sleep It wont ignore something like that, if its awake it will require cultural evolution the culture is controlled by the money, and business is able to think more and more into the future as they get bigger also, people dont have time to change any more, they arent individuals, just parts of their employer KG: the IP hoarders may make lots of money; it's still a small part of the money incentive in the world. IP hoarders live like parasites they can only steal riches that other people make. which is why they are bound to lose. the loosers dont have enough money to win, and just being right doesnt mean a thing * Fare/#Tunes is afraid of the similarity of what he says with marxist rhetoric! KG: on the long run, it does besides they dont have time to try to bring change, they need to get a job to survive KG: just for the same reason that autocracies and dictatorships are dying monarchies have been replaced by democracies IP hoarding will be replaced by free information slavery was abolished. So will IP be. IP is enslavement of the mind instead of enslavement of the body. It's less crual, but more vicious. I hope so, but im not going to rest wishing... I think I have to do something, dunno what yet... But IP is only a small step towords individuality, which is more important i think <_ruiner_> good call kor.... 07:00pm no, that happens because we do NOT rest. We are part of making it happen. Let us make it happen better and sooner. <_ruiner_> nobody can come up with something truly inventive if they spend all their time at work answering phones and crap ruiner: newbie support is not the only service out there... * Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 31 min 36 secs developing software is a service, too, mind you! So is putting in contact potential customers and proficient developers. Freedom transforms difficulties into opportunity. Protection transforms difficulty into oppression. <_ruiner_> thats an awesome quote fare * Tril/#TUNES walks around in the dark with sunglasses on ruiner: my self-quote book has it like that: Freedom transforms difficulty into opportunity, danger into responsibility. "Protection" transforms difficulty into oppression, danger into catastrophe. ruiner: if you like it, put it into your auto .sig database... I'm not satisfied with the "catastrophe", tho if you can find a better way to say it... <_ruiner_> chaos Nice, but not exactly that, either. Fare: s/catastrophe/headline news/ or maybe take the psychological effect instead. some word for ignorance of growing danger like some word for people groveling at the feet of the mighty who seem to have a means to make the danger go away <_ruiner_> blind obedience you mean serfdom not forcibly blind. But vile. dictatorship, totalitarionism maybe. anyway. word games r fun aren't they? what do you think language was invented for? * Fare/#Tunes thinks abotu translating his meta-novel into english... ;-> hehe the novel is about a machine to transmit matter from point to point have you made any non-technical meta-documents KG: sure. that is a kool idea <_ruiner_> to exchange ideas, opinions and fact the meta-novel is the description of how that scifi novel should be... 07:10pm the scifi novel is not written, and most likely will never be... Fare: do you use Lyx for typesetting? no, I just use LaTeX. or sgml-tools maybee I should do that. Lyx fscked my document up, because I tries to mass-select/change indentation :/ I dunno LaTeX yet though... s/tries/tried KG: 1) make backups 2) don't trust software that think they are smarter than you are. [eihrul] s/catastrophe/tragedy? I have backups :) corollary of 2) dump Losedoze and MockAss Fare: if you dont like IP you should PD all your work Tril: maybe. or maybe you like IP, a little bit? Tril: except that I (maybe wrongly) believe that using GPL is a stronger political act. fare: but the GPL in itself limits freedom the gpl has several parts i dont like 1. non compatible with other code (and ambiguity of what is derived work and therefore covered) -:- archon [pirch@eedialup108.dnvr.uswest.net] has joined #tunes -:- archon [pirch@eedialup108.dnvr.uswest.net] has left #tunes [] if I were to publish things under PD conditions, I'd rather use a BSD-style no-warranty statement (or is it unnecessary?) Tril: I don't like a lot of it, either artistic license is much nicer... 2. can't make non-free derivatives (excludes competition between free and non-free software) but it's no more technique, it's politics, that make me choose it. to me, non-free is utterly evil. the problem I see with GPL, is the incompatibility between free licenses. effectively: you may do anything you wish so long as it does not endanger the author's ability to continue his work 07:20pm <_ruiner_> to me non free isn't good or evil, it simply costs money or rather, wrt to the artistic-style licenses _ruiner_: wrong use of 'free' ruiner: that's the definition of evil, to me although not being modifiable could lose you money :) something that destroy the limited resources of earth for no avail we are no longer limited to taking resources from earth <_ruiner_> I see it as paying for time spent s/earth/universe/ <_ruiner_> if you want something done otherwise, do it yourself ruiner: money begats money... if things cost money, then they can't conceivably all be free it's about rights vs privileges. I am ready to pay for opportunities, just not for licenses. <_ruiner_> so you're saying that if somebody invents something, produces it, and works out all the kinks, you're entitled to it merely because paying for something is wrong? i'm saying paying for something is wrong as it starts the whole chain of capitalism going whatever i also think capitalism is a bad system, as it quickly out eveolves the individuals which make it s/eveolves/evolves a social systems needs to be reflective, just as much as an operating system does so it can check the freedom of the individuals in it, not just there contentedness <_ruiner_> competition is good when it comes to products, not people * Fare/#Tunes already used half of that 10.8G partition! depends on what you call "capitalism". * Fare/#Tunes has a page about classical liberalism KG: right on this one. which is why IP is evil. because the root of the reason why market is good is that *informed* actors will agree on optimal price. ruiner: if things do not cost money, then what value does money have any longer? why do you need recompense for work if you can just get it? <_ruiner_> exactly, you have no reason to do anything anymore