IRC log started Wed Jun 9 00:00:00 1999 <|Myrmidon> I'm reading "Ender's Game". It's good. The author talks about how Ender and his sister use "nets", similar to what newsgroups are today... keeping in mind it was published in 1986, that's quite funny. :P [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0609 -:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp379.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) 12:10am -:- NetSplit: koontz.openprojects.net split from clarke.openprojects.net [12:30am] -:- BitchX+Deb1an: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [koontz.openprojects.net] -:- Netjoined: koontz.openprojects.net clarke.openprojects.net -:- |Myrmidon [ubiquity@dm4-1.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes -:- Fare [rideau@quatramaran.ens.fr] has joined #tunes !koontz.openprojects.net!! Received :forward.openprojects.net SERVER sterling.openprojects.net from devlin.openprojects.net !?! -:- _ruiner_ [nate@ppp379.wi.centuryinter.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff _ruiner_: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- SignOff |Myrmidon: #TUNES (Ping timeout for |Myrmidon[dm4-1.slc.aros.net]) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-62.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) -:- |Myrmidon [ubiquity@dm2-43.slc.aros.net] has joined #tunes <|Myrmidon> Howdy. 02:40am -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-246-206.s587.tnt2.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us345.javanet.com] has joined #tunes -:- SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup395.nni.com] has joined #tunes sr_r! hey bonjour, s_r fare how goes work? * Fare/#Tunes doesn't go to work today the only thing i hate about tunes is that it's too abstract not enough real code ;) sr: sure feel free to write code! 08:30am do you know where to get gnu mach 1.0? see around the HURD site or Review/OSes.html#mach hmmm it's unnaturally hard to get mach sources then republish them easily on your page! 08:40am hmmm mach 3.0 kernel sources fare have you any experience with Mach? not although you may read what I wrote on microkernels what I read about it (design, benchmarks, server code that uses it) convinced me that it was a braindead approach really? why? can't you read? http://tunes.org/papers/Glossary/index.html#microkernel ok mach? well, mach is an experimental microkernel made originally by CMU abi: mach is also at http://www.tunes.org/Review/OSes.html#mach okay, Fare. fluke is an evolution of mach made by the CS department of Utah University flux? oops, was #Mach abi: no, mach is a bloated "microkernel" at http://www.tunes.org/Review/OSes.html#Mach okay, Fare. 08:50am bloated eh fare do you think VSTa is bloated? VSTa? well, VSTa is a microkernel OS made by Andy Valencia (www.zendo.com/vsta) no, VSTa is not bloated oops 09:00am om Alonzo are you working on an OS of your own? -:- binEng [Anders@dialup42-4-11.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes yes Or meta working at the moment. =\ -:- SignOff |Myrmidon: #TUNES (Leaving) meta working? 10:10am thinking about working... =( 10:20am alonzo what kind of ideas for an OS do you have? he wants an OS that be the greatest, the fastest, the most portable, the best designed, the most user-friendly, with the most software in the world, yet written entirely by him in 6502 assembly hehe atc.peon.net/~cyborg/ =) 10:30am -:- SignOff s_r: #TUNES (Ping timeout for s_r[phila-dialup395.nni.com]) -:- Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.205] has joined #tunes Hey. >>> Kaufmann [Kaufmann@200.224.105.205] requested PING 928949816 from TUNES ho ya, hi no, lo hm Can't stay for long or better even, gakuk! K: what's up? Fare: a bit. I'm helping Kelly of osOpinion.com reorganize and automate the site, and I'm also designing a semantics-sensitive multimedia database engine, even though I have no experience on the subject whatsoever. Oh yes, and my ISP's backbone link seems to have gone nuts again. * Kaufmann/#tunes shoots Faré with the ping-gun 10:40am ... to little or no effect, apparently. om -:- Kaufmann is now known as KaufmannBRB -:- KaufmannBRB is now known as Kaufmann 10:50am ... anyone? -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-007.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes 11:00am I'm leaving. BBL, prolly. Bye, -:- SignOff Kaufmann: #TUNES ("Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind." - Albert Einstein) -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup191.nni.com] has joined #tunes Hey sr hi what are you working on now? UniOS? hmmm... UniOS is at http://unios.dhs.org sr: AKOS right now. abi: AKOS? i heard AKOS was A Kind Of Special game hmmm Darwin? Darwin what? Darwin is Apple's venture into the open source arena (a BSD+Mach3.0 OS) i am looking at Darwin sources, just thought about it Oh yes, I've heard about that one. It's written in Objective C right? atc.peon.net/~cyborg/ Beholder do you think AKOS will be fun? sr: Well, beyond the neat technical stuff going on, my main focus will be to make sure it is! :) I love RPG's of all types and I'm hoping I can make a decent one :) hmmm you know what would be cool? An OS with an RPG theme :) 11:10am beholder: is yours going to be like Everquest? -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Read error to binEng[dialup42-4-11.swipnet.se]: Connection reset by peer) -:- binEng [Anders@dialup42-4-11.swipnet.se] has joined #tunes sr: Nope, it's going to be 2D... I didn't like the 3D everquest :) om -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (GPF!!!!! =(((() sr: But then again I'm only working on the prototype engine right now, it might very well be 3D before it's done :) hmmm beholder, I want to someday make a 3d RPG/Strategy (like Myth with RPG elements) for UNIX/X11 !NickServ:*! jcl used GETPASS on d sr: That sounds cool, just learn some MESA :) Our engine will be open source, and I imagine with the flexibility we're programming in, it shoud be easy enough to make it 3d :) A 3d environment with our model would be even slower than hell bin: hehhehe... Look kinda funny being room based :) !NickServ:*! jcl used GETPASS on d rpg/strategy is great beholder is yours going to have elements of both? sr: Well, we haven't thought much about strategy elements yet, but it might make it interesting to controll large armys to do your bidding :) that's exactly what i want in mine armies you fight with armies and the armies are made up of PCs that have stats, inventories, etc and it's going to be massively multiplayer like UO sr: Yep, that would be cool :) But you'd need some kick ass servers to handle that beholder: that's what TUNES is for :) Beholder: perhaps we'll add code to each other's projects i will definitely look at yours sr: Tunes the OS, or Tunes server (Bespin)... hehe... I don't think Bespin could handle that :) I'd need some big pipes, and some clustered servers (I'm not optimizing my code, let the computers get faster! ;) 11:20am sr: I have the early engine work if you'd like to see it (it runs under Win95/98 though) cool, maybe you can post it somewhere? (it is open source :) sr: I'd post the source, but I'd be slapped by every programmer who uses C++ ... heheh... it's terrible looking at this point (but it works). I'll post the code when it looks a little nicer (in about a week) ok what have you accomplished so far has it progressed far yet? Are you in windows right now? ya I'll DCC it to you >>> s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup191.nni.com] requested VERSION from #tunes one sec, gotta boot my development machine and get the latest ZIP devmach dev machine you have a network? sr: dev machine = my laptop :) sr: Yep 100 Base TX FDX :) i have a 10 base T netwokr Beholder have you ever used VSTa? VSTa? Nope, what is it? Vsta? Vsta is a microkernel OS made by Andy Valencia (www.zendo.com/vsta) it's cool i like to develop for it it's like Linux when Linux was in its early stages >>> s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup191.nni.com] requested FINGER from #tunes [Fare FINGER reply]: Keep your fingers to yourself... hahahha sr: Sending Unable to connect! sr: Damn I don't have the right ZIP file... gimme one more sec -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-238-133.s387.tnt9.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes u 11:30am beh: do you know if Plan 9 comes with sources on the CD? beh: Plan 9? Hmm... you'd have to check their page, I'm not sure Beh what's your favorite OS? sr: I like them all :) so many OSes! it's like an ice cream shoppe with many flavors brb -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-007.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-007.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has joined #tunes sr: You need DirectX 6.0 or highter to run the demo though yuck Fare: It's much more complicated than it should be... Fare: The ideal would be just to give some pointers to the frame buffer of the video card, but they put it though a bunch of abstraction layers sort of like TUNES and its abstraction 11:40am sr: I don't mind the concept of abstraction, but they make it complicated, and force you to do things a certian wya certian way :) beholder the demo certainly is interesting sr: It's not much yet :) it reminds me of Abuse the game by crack dot com Abuse? That's a platform scroller? Beholder i think i'll try assembly/x86 under Linux/X11 :) beholder do you know a lot about DirectX? sr: Just learning do you know anything about X11? sr: I used to do Asm/x86 under DOS :) X? asm rules sr: Never done any programming for it doesn't it :) sr: ASM has it's purpose, but I'd never do a whole program in it ;) s_r: get a clue -- read the Asm HOWTO :) fare tcn should write it :) -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup191.nni.com] has left #tunes [] 11:50am -:- ProGuy [Paul@p449-1.ppp.get2net.dk] has joined #tunes Tril_: You there? 12:20pm -:- SignOff binEng: #TUNES (Leaving) I guess not ;) 12:30pm wassup? Nothing actually Any cd-r expers in here? * ProGuy/#tunes thinks it's dead here... got some work to do later :) * Fare/#Tunes is an undead -:- Beholder [beholder@ppp-007.m4-1.osh.ican.net] has left #tunes [] -:- SignOff ProGuy: #TUNES (Read error to ProGuy[p449-1.ppp.get2net.dk]: EOF from client) 12:40pm PG: what do you call a "premature end" 12:50pm -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (off to play dumb game) hum 01:30pm -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-252-147.s401.tnt1.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes -:- Meditator [kvirc@194.206.208.136] has joined #Tunes -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup498.nni.com] has joined #tunes -:- Meditator [kvirc@194.206.208.136] has left #Tunes [Bye] -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup498.nni.com] has left #tunes [] -:- hcf [nef@me-portland-us707.javanet.com] has joined #tunes Gakuk! -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (gpf) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-229-68.s576.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes 03:10pm * hcf/#tunes is away. -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250114.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes hey salut, tcn hi, everyone else * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations tcn!" :-) * tcn/#tunes has 25 emails 03:30pm -:- SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) AlonzoTG! alonzotg is annoying with his greetings messages em 03:40pm -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-147.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes hola allo? y0 :) anyone read my draft paper? fare: a new one? fare: lambdaND ? implement1 04:00pm fare: what's the url? same: ~fare/tmp/ ok i'll take a look ok. got it. * water/#tunes starts to read Fare's new paper. -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-147.tscnet.net]) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-7.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes ok back 04:10pm water: did you finish reading already??? not yet i'll le you know wow. it's nice and dry like a martini. :) 04:20pm what's nice and dry? the paper, of course! does the navy allow its people to drink alcohol? you find it readable? i'm surprised that you don't understand my system, given this mathematical formal understanding. of course i can read it! water: maybe there is a misfit between your use and my understanding of vocabulary... well, i definitely understand your vocabulary: it's the usual academic understanding of terms in the literature. (you have to realize that i am self-educated for the most part) i've bent the terms to my own use as necessary, since making new terms in this field is very dangerous as to confusion. 04:30pm I realize. I consider myself internet educated, but with a bit of CS background and some math background, too bending terms is MUCH more confusing than making new ones i also am in no position to apply for grant money, so that pandering to the academic community and its sluggish progress is not appealing to me, =) fare: i disagree, because my terms are precise. it's my interpretation of them which has no name. fare: for instance, i mention Robinson diagrams, but there is little literature on them, and none on my concept of an extension to them. !netgod:*! welp upstream has a t3 flapping in the breeze -- fun fun fare: so, i must describe my terms in intuitive ways, because few mathematical formalisms exist for a language that can't fit into a first-order description. ok. your paper has been relatively well digested now by myself. -:- _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes hi qz <_QZ> hello hoy, _QZ fare? are you there? yup 04:40pm I hate the debian config process well? what sort of feedback are you looking for about the paper? water if you have precise terms, then don't reuse existing imprecise ones or qualify them in some distinguishing way fare: well, then my option is to coin new words (unpalatable) or not using words at all (categorically impossible) fare: how?? * water/#tunes is getting annoyed at this one-way conversation. instead of using the word "foo" unqualified, use the "bar foo" so, i call them "super-models" or "hyper-models" or some other meaningless term?? water: feedback: is the paper readable? is it useful? any comment? any pointer to existing literature? -lilo(lilo@varley.openprojects.net)- [GlobalNotice] Hi all. Please bear with us. In a moment we'll be moving a few servers. Thanks! at least at first. Or you clearly define your term, and explain how it drastically differs from uses elsewhere fare: it's mostly a mathematical paper, so unreadable by anyone without the background. it's very elementary, tho fare: hardly. no one on the list is familiar with categories. except myself and perhaps one or two others. well, I also offer isomorphic definitions in set theory that's hardly helpful to the laymen. and in language theory !carter.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT irc.linux.com 8005 from lilo and in <> theory (what's the name of this thing where you have stateful machines?) state-transition theory? 04:50pm nah, that'd be all too easy brb i hate windoze -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (The Tao has left the building!) <_QZ> does anyone here use rxvt? rxvt sucks <_QZ> no it doesnt <_QZ> its very small why couldn't they just rip off the tektronic stuff from xterm and keep the rest? <_QZ> gnome-terminals suck, they use 3.5meg just for the window xterm is good <_QZ> rxvt is under a meg (and the tektronic stuff is swapped away, anyway) -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-178.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes ok can we resume nicely? nicely? renice -19 $(pidof irc) let's discuss things term by term, rather than with general statements. water: install Linux! L I N U X ! fare: i'm working on it. 05:00pm -:- SignOff water: #TUNES (Ping timeout for water[ppp-tnt-178.tscnet.net]) LINUX SUCKS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! IT PISSES ME OFF!!! -:- mode/#tunes [+o Fare] by ChanServ -:- AlonzoTG was kicked off #tunes by Fare (foo!) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@209-122-229-68.s576.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #Tunes -:- Fare was kicked off #tunes by Fare (bar!) 05:10pm -:- Dave [thrustit@209.68.229.197] has joined #tunes hello -:- Dave is now known as HickServ 05:20pm <_QZ> can chmod recursively change all directories-only to +x? _QZ: -R <_QZ> but can it only change directories? oops <_QZ> i need to recursively change all directories, not files, to +x hmm, find w/ -type d -:- _jello_ [tom@206.139.112.74] has joined #tunes <_jello_> tunes tunes tunes om <_jello_> hi hello, _jello_ AlonzoTG: http://members.xoom.com/_XOOM/marksibly/mark/blitz.html 05:30pm -:- tcn [tcn@cci-209150250121.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes what's happening? tcn: little here atm -:- SignOff _jello_: #TUNES (xchat exiting..) on the moove... i haven't been on here since I got a job.. hehe hey, www.tunes.org just screwed up on me! tcn: how so? it only showed me the first 6 lines of today's irc log tcn: no prob for me i'm pretty sure it screwed up.. it could have been lagged though AlonzoTG: http://members.xoom.com/cattaghia/index.html how do you mount the cdrom? mount -t iso9660 /dev/cdrom /mnt -:- SignOff AlonzoTG: #TUNES (Ping timeout for AlonzoTG[209-122-229-68.s576.tnt5.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com]) -:- AlonzoTG [Alonzo@216-164-230-193.s193.tnt7.lnh.md.dialup.rcn.com] has joined #tunes sdsf you can use any empty directory, doesn't have to be /mnt i use /cd suden death system freeze -:- s_r [s_rr@phila-dialup172.nni.com] has joined #tunes 05:40pm tcn any of your asm files use linux sys calls? hs: via the C library, yes bah humbug mostly through printf Nevermind, www.tunes.org didn't screw up. I did :) i just want to do stuff through int 0x80 I asked for the irc log for 1999.0509.. uhh, it's 0609 :) tcn how's work on Retro? hs: you're asking the wrong guy s_r: i got a job why r many ppl here not using nick colon text ? that means I'm busy all week tcn what kind of job? illustrating.. does Plan 9 use paging? :((( this sux0rs where are the man pages? just about every os uses paging HickServ: for what? hs: /usr/src/linux/* k hehe er tcn do you use Linux? try under arch/i386 s_r: yup Linux used to be small, like Retro i need to undderstand unistd.h it has progressed so i can use int 0x80 nad how come when i try to access qzx.com winblowz gives me a file download crap QZ how's work on BriX? <_QZ> s_r: its moving along qz's php3 poop is broken <_QZ> hcf: what? _QZ: see hs's comment qz: release the source code (can i just take a look)? :) 05:50pm I'm designing Retro to promote modularity and code reuse, to avoid the kinda bloating Linux suffers from now. Also it's more of a one-man design, i.e., I planned out the OS "philosophy" ahead of time.. I hope that's enough to keep it in shape.. what is the url for the brix image then? tcn is linux bloated? monolithic kernel that should say it :) retro? retro is, like, at http://bespin.cx/~tcn/retro.html tcn: would AST give u an A? ast? abi: ast? ast is Andrew S. Tenebaum, hp at http://www.cs.vu.nl/~ast/ tcn why is linux bloated? s_r: the kernel is getting there.. but the main thing is the libraries and apps. wie so? oh, the minix guy.. hehe tcn: what about FreeBSD? * hcf/#tunes is (for those dont know) refering to the AST vs. LBT usenet discussion wherein AST gave LBT an 'F' for making a monolithic kernel I like fbsd.. but linux works a little better s/dont/who dont/ whoa.. ast has quite a few books to his credit.. he must be a real bullshitter hehehe tcn: oh you -:- Joob [user6655@dm4195-vix.vix.zaz.com.br] has joined #Tunes hello qz: where can i locate the BRiX kernel image? -:- Joob [user6655@dm4195-vix.vix.zaz.com.br] has left #Tunes [] <_QZ> ftp.qzx.com k 06:00pm what is it like? <_QZ> well its nothing like what i will be releasing soon :\ a shitx0r why does it have to be so big i can't fit it onto a floppy <_QZ> huh? 5,300 bytes! oh haha im silly * HickServ/#tunes slaps his silly self <_QZ> how could u think that was bigger than 1.4meg? see ya guys.. I don't have much time to kill anymore.. tcn: if in 32-bit pmode with paging on, how does rep stosd or any of the string functions work? like are the segment registers used is the 32-bit register used or is just the 16-bit register used the register which points to the string <_QZ> yes the segment registers are used ok but if one of the string fucntions (stosd or whatever) uses ES:SI in real mode, what does it use in pmode? ES:ESI? <_QZ> the cpu will put the segment register and offset together to form the linear address and then run it thru the pager to get the physical address <_QZ> es:edi and ds:esi just like in rmode doesn't it put it through the pager before it puts it through the segment registers? <_QZ> no but the linear address before the segment registers has important flags and such in it it would ruin the flags if it was added to the segment registers <_QZ> but if u just create one descriptor that covers all 4gig and load it into es and ds then u dont need to worry about any of that yup a linear address doesn't have any flags in it only the page table entries contain flags, in the lower 12 bits are you sure it puts it through segment registers first? yeah <_QZ> im positive dammit cp image won't work <_QZ> its 'damnit' anyway, it works great. The problem is that the registers are all special-purpose the 68060 had 17 32-bit registers, and that was in 1980 :) 68000 I mean.. <_QZ> HickServ: did u gunzip it? yes wait oh i know brb 06:10pm tcn you're self taught? and you had 7 address registers with post-increment/decrement.. real useful for stacks, lists, etc.. s_r: yeah, for the most part <_QZ> it should get 3-4 times bigger after gunzipping QZ: can i look at BriX code? <_QZ> s_r: ya * HickServ/#tunes is tired i think i shall stop i wanna look at BRiX!!! * s_r/#tunes sends mail to wedontcare@qzx.com :) qz: what all is in that image? it didn't do much.. HickServ hold your horses, a bit impatient there aren't you? <_QZ> tcn: preemptive multithreading and all the method calling crap i am oh <_QZ> tcn: i didnt have time to write anything for it to do :) -:- Joob [user9534@dm4195-vix.vix.zaz.com.br] has joined #Tunes but i don't get to see much good source code qz: is BriX going to become the second BeOS * AlonzoTG/#tunes greets "Salutations Joob!" :-) thanks <_QZ> s_r: brix is nothing like beos, but it is better i've never seen the source to an object based os qz: in what ways? what's Tunes? Tunes is probably a useful nevertheless expedient system or at http://tunes.org/ or a free reflective computing system hs: linux is an OO OS, if you consider files objects hummm <_QZ> s_r: well it goes way beyond the code reuse that tcn say's he is putting in retro bah humbug C++ silly tcn QZ: is BriX really going to be the great OS you say it is? -:- water [water@ppp-tnt-226.tscnet.net] has joined #tunes s_r: no he lied :))) hi <_QZ> s_r: yes it is