IRC log started Mon Feb 1 00:00:00 1999 [msg(TUNES)] permlog 1999.0201 ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Ping timeout for Fare[esmeralda.enst.fr]) ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes hoy iStormy hi 09:00am lo ωνω KeLp [tcole@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES hi kelp 09:10am hey my first class was canceled so I got up for no reason I really wanted to stay in bed too that always sucks yep class? lucky boy! yeah, my poli sci class was canceled π KeLp/#TUNES <-- Poli Sci Major although I haven't declared yet I should probably do that before next quarter 09:20am poli sci? whaaat's that? 09:40am Political Science I actualy like it for some reason if cspan isn't your favorite channel, you'll go crazy in politics I'm not going into politics and thats only US politics european politics are much less boring in the japanese diet fist fights are not uncommon in the british house of commons most of the game is to insult better than the other party I just like poli sci I'm a sysadmin after school I will be a sysadmin still 09:50am ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (later) ωνω TMF [s720@mort.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes gkuk 10:40am hi 10:50am goodday 11:00am π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 12 hrs 13 min 40 secs hoy Tril hi bonjour, Tril hi Tril: i see u saw the tao thing 11:20am Fare told me the url oh see, i was thinking perhaps we should hav a single person that handles the links from usenet so we dont get 10ppl sending the same link to review@ whatcha think? it would be nice to have single people with specific jobs, yes but that requires someone to maintain a list of who has what specific job, as well as what specific jobs need people, and maintain a webpage for it. So far no one is actively maintaining anything. hmm, I guess Beholder would say that I need to ask someone directly to do something. Otherwise they won't. i actively maintain abi, dont i? yup oh yeah, that's what my projects thing was for in perl..I got frustrated with how long it was taking to write that. 11:30am the whos/whats maintaining/being maintained thing? yeah. It would have kept track of projects which aren't yet maintained, and list maintainers/contributors to projects wihch are maintained, with an info blurb and webpage link. it would automatically let people propose new projects or claim them (become leader/maintainer) the following parts are done: create new id, login, logout, edit member info. I haven't yet made a projects database (which is required for the rest of the parts) you can see the current one at projects.tunes.org (www) oh yeah, the cookie thing which, btw, i dont mind turning cookies on for do u folow alt.os.development? π Fare/#Tunes is back Fare: do u? I am subscribed to it (in my .newsrc), but my news site doesn't seem to get very many articles from it. (1 article every few months) hcf: we don't get alt. groups in France anymore, since a long time ago Tril: so u didnt see the icepack thing? Fare: from ur bespin acct, you can access news.nas.com (since those fscking "pedophilia on internet" scandals) hcf: I also don't check my usenet very often anymore. I haven't read news for a few weeks. I dont know what icepack is Fare: Did they ban the WWW, too? Tril: I guess I could; now that I got cable, I need setup a news server on my router. How about e-mail? You can always get child porn through e-mail. Tril: how about brains? you can always icepack (formerly wolfpack) @ http://home.t-online.de/home/hilgardth/, wolfpack @ http://www.crosswinds.net/frankfurt/~adrian/wolfpack.htm have *bad thought* with a brain! wolfpack is a war game π Fare/#Tunes is having fscking trouble with netatalk netatalk sounded like a pain to install abi, wolfpack is also whatever hcf just said okay, Tril. Tril: it *is* a pain to install and MockAss is a caricature of an OS, too 11:40am what do you think about Mockass X ouch (let me guess - it sucks! like everything else) it doesn't even exist. I like the quote at top: "Why on earth ANOTHER operating system project?" 11:50am icepack seems kind of silly i guess it's just the way the page is written >>> Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] requested PING 917899028 284637 from #TUNES 12:00pm ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (bbl) ωνω SignOff TMF: #TUNES (Leaving) ωνω TMF [s720@ildflue.ii.uib.no] has joined #tunes ωνω KeLp [tcole@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES Tril, when you found the seg fault in tml, what tool did you use? hi, tmf, kelp TMF: i just ran gdb to find what function it was in. gdb wasn't much help other than that. But to locate the exact free() call that was crashing, I inserted a bunch of puts(), one before each call to free. KeLp: I am looking at non-free packages now ok. There are some other bug which gives me problem when running it on my pc. TMF: you should really be writing your prototype in either lisp or ML! plus, it is a must to have learnt one of these languages! 12:40pm Fare: This is true, but you shouldn't discourage him. :) I'm not discouraged:) π iStormy/#Tunes growls...he hates html tables. Tril: did you set up dselect to auto suck them down? iS: who doesn't? your next step will get to get apt-get it rocks I chose C because, eventually, TOOL will compile to C ( or 'C), and it may be benificial to stick to one language. KeLp: actually, I was looking for pine binaries, but they only have pine source + diffs. I guess I'll have to learn mutt. (since I don't want to install a compiler on this machine) but, surely, in general, Lisp is a programming language in comparison to C TMF: compiling *to* C and compiling *from* C are *completely* different concepts! See Stalin, mercury, etc! Tril: you can't get pine binaries except the shitty ones that UW puts out mutt sucks much less than pine any way just like compiling *to* asm of *from* asm! KL: pine sucks, anyway. Get mutt! kelp uses mutt right Yes, but in the final TML/TOOL, code will be dynamically linked, and it's simpler to link C to C than C to Lisp ( I don't really know that :) it sucks less than pine ok, mabe I just use C because that's one language I know:) 12:50pm yes, it is hard to link C to lisp, requires intelligent code analyzers to determine which lisp functions you don't use choosing lisp means basically depending on having the entire lisp environment all the time. Which is fine for tunes, because everything is around all the time. but we don't want to depend, even on lisp - in the long run uh? If you control the emitted C code, linking doesn't quite depend on the language the compiler was written in! TMF: we'll still need to have asome sort of standard even if a very small one, or an informal one and there's no reason why you would need more of the lisp system than you'd use yes, at any time, but with reflection, it can change from context to context lisp compilers typically have "tree shakers" just for that! (btw, you don't complain about having to link to a 2MB libc) Fare: if you call lisp from C, you need the whole lisp environment, because you might invoke the (compile) function I mean, a 3MB libc ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (later) my libc is 600k ok, 635k 01:00pm 3006 -rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 3064052 Jun 7 1998 /lib/libc-2.0.7.so and you needn't export the compiler or you might put it in another library, just like gcc isn't part of libc. anyway, this "lisp is big" or "lisp is difficult to link" stuff is pure bullshit. lisp is infinitely simpler than C++ Fare: Anyways, if you don't have the whole environment, you CAN'T do metaprogramming. you'll have to take out all functions related to processing lisp code. eval, apply, compile, load, save, etc take out as in remove or pick to use? remove Tril: things aren't a tiny bit easier in C. All the less! Tril: why take anything out? Just have a well-thought module system. 01:10pm btw, the ocaml optimizing compiler is 707KB -- much smaller than the libc! don't listen to me, anyway. I'm new to lisp the TML object file is 77472 bytes I can live with it, as a prototype how is the speed efficiency in C vs Lisp, Fare? π Tril/#TUNES is away: (away) [BX-MsgLog Off] TMF: depends on the quality of compilers, and the kind of code. TMF: in the worst cases, lisp is a bit slower. In the best cases, it's infinitely faster. does Lisp code need a lot of runtime stash. cause it's partially interpreted? TMF: bullshit. TMF: if Lisp is interpreted, then so is C. so it doesn't? so, you don't use eval and compile alot? EiC, Cint, UPS are C interpreters does that make C an "interpreted language" ??? eval is seldom/never used in LISP, except in interactive applications. 01:20pm can you evaluate a regular string - sequence of characters - at runtime? ok, there is a different between JIT and interpretation, and Lisp is more JITish abi: abi? rumour has it i am the little girl borg with a big brain or #tunes' personal little whore or an infoslut or gaklosmontic or flurivostuginuous or xyvarestoplik or crapulmaniac or or TMF: there is in CommonLISP a standard eval function TMF: there isn't (at least, wasn't) in Scheme, and there isn't in ML. JIT/interpretation/compiler is an IMPLEMENTATION issue. It's not a design issue. You can compile any language. native Java compilers exist, and produce much faster code than JITs. The problem with Java is that code is distributed in JVM bytecode. the problem is not Java, the language (which sucks as compared to Lisp), but the braindead JVM. nono, I just thought that since Lisp has functions like 'eval' and 'compile', it needs to do some parsing/compiling/interpreting at runtime, and that would require some runtime fasilities to do. you only need parse/compile/interpret what you eval at runtime some languages need to be interpreted! just like in C you must execve(gcc) for what you'd want to compile at runtime I personally think the lisp way is much better than the C way. though in C, you can link to EiC (just that the EiC API ain't standard) you don't need compile/interpret any code in LISP, unless you explicitly want so ωνω NetSplit: zsoldos.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [01:28pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [zsoldos.openprojects.net] the idea is ridiculous! 01:30pm ωνω Netjoined: zsoldos.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net ωνω TMF [s720@ildflue.ii.uib.no] has joined #TUNES TMF: what's the last thing from me you got? ωνω tcn [tcn@cci-209150250115.clarityconnect.net] has joined #tunes c interpretet??? of course, what's shocking about it? I mean, that was the last thing I got:) question your prejudices! does that make C an "interpreted language" ??? ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iStormy[rain.futuresouth.com]) ouch, I said a lot since! Hey Fare, why are you always so negative? Are you trying to stifle creativity? If he wants to use C, let him!! At least that way, somebody's using it.. 01:40pm ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes TMF: everything he said is in the logs.. http://www2.tunes.org/files/irc/1999.0201 ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iStormy[rain.futuresouth.com]) ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes I'm encouraging him to learn. thanks, tcn It's ok if he uses C out of choice. abi, tao? tcn: bugger all, i dunno It's not ok if he uses it out of ignorance. where's Tao? sure, one day, mabe, I too, will go about learning Lisp. But choosing between languages now, is a choice of the lesser evil, and really, for what I'm doing, I doesn't matter at all when I'm finnished Fare: What if I said LISP, Scheme, and Forth suck? so what? TMF is using C to write something entirely different. What's it matter what language he starts with? tcn: depends what you call "suck" TMF: right on. (lesser evil) if you mean "have limitations", then sure. If you mean "don't bring anything to the mind", then no. C++, BASIC, are languages that cripple the mind. They should be categorized as dangerous nuisances, and promoting them should be considered a major offense. LISP, Scheme, FORTH, are languages that open new doors to the mind. Certainly, they are not flawless. but you are brighter, not dumber, for having learnt them. 01:50pm and you shouldn't pretend to "revolution" the world of computing, least you know about such languages as LISP, FORTH, Prolog, etc I don't pretend, I just to my thing, much the same as you do yours. To this list, I'd add C and OCAML, too. and Mercury. OCAML or just ML? You know I agree with you with recards to the fact that C has the abstractionlevel of assembler. well, ML mainly comes in two flavors, CAML or SML. The CAML flavor is better. but the SML flavor is more "standard" (whatever that means). But sometimes you like to be on that level for a while. It too will make you a bit brighter. C is not as expressive as assembler it forces upon you a crippling calling convention yeah. Everything has be in assembler, when you get to the bottom of it.. function(parameter) ? typical benchmarks show that you can be many times faster than it, and do interesting things (call/cc) by rejecting it. tcn: C forces a programming model upon you tcn: Prolog, Mercury, or even Scheme, challenge it plus it is *completely* unadapted for multithreaded programming. so that concurrent languages, like JOCAML, challenge it, too! C is a paradigmatically challenged language. Assembly is much better, altho it's not portable at all. Some people are currently designing C-- as an (incompatible) replacement to C, so as to achieve a better portable low-level virtual machine ( I'm off ) ωνω SignOff TMF: #TUNES (Leaving) that could serve as a backend to compilers for high-level languages hmm... hi oops Don't you ever look at the bright side, fare? tcn: always look on the bright side of life! 02:00pm yeah.. quit complaining :) I'm not complaining except about people who think C is the be-all end-all of anything There are only a few variants of assembly.. a few different syntaxes, and a few major machine architectures... and C doesn't offer a way to efficiently handle them You know one assembler, you know 'em all. Translating from one assembly langauge to another is something a monkey could do. proof is the contortions needed when using C as a compiler backend tcn: false! hehe tcn: 6502 is much different from 8088, much different from ARM, much different from P21, etc The hard part is supporting different peripheral hardware tcn: nonsense! Languages should try NOT to define a virtual machine, as C does, and as Forth does. Consider the Turing machine vs. Lambda calculus. Both were designed for the same purpose, but one's a lot simpler.. a language IPSO FACTO defines a virtual machine. Are you sure? And if you're right, there are degrees of definition. a language that wants to allow arbitrary low-level programming should have that vm match the hardware C fails to do that C-- is an attempt to fix things in that respect I personally think hardware-specific programming should be done in assembly. You know what would be nice... tcn: assembly can be done from with a higher-level language, as in inline asm under C, or LAP under LISP. (or CODE under FORTH) How about a "generic assembly language" that fits all assembly languages? Something like your Scheme-assembly stuff, only not so ugly :) (No I won't apologize for that!) that's C-- 02:10pm Won't C-- be like C though? nevermind Are you a musician? a bit what instrument(s)? flute flute.. I never woulda guessed that :) I play guitar, myself. I mostly chant and whistle, these days 02:20pm Hey, you really just write papers and go to conferences? and work on Tunes, of course even less that that for instance, currently, I'm IRC'ing and configuring netatalk instead of writing a paper! what about you? You're a grad student right? As such, you're expected to write a bunch of papers? 02:30pm Me? I'm headed off to band practice soon. I go to college, too, only 2nd year though. I never have been that interested in schooling. I'm a PhD student expected to write a paper for yesterday! I discovered something in math, which some professors think is worthy of a paper. It's nothing new though. If it leads me to anything interested, I'll think about writing it :) It concerns the limitations of digital computers. I have been kinda interested in analog computers... I mean, if digital errors can cause a bridge to collapse, maybe analog computing is worth pursuing. fare, I saw your discussion about the "free software programming brokerage".. now there's an idea worth following through on! You realize it could revolutionize more than just software... it could revolutionize "intellectual property", even revolutionize economics... sure. Go ahead. tcn: how would analog computing be any better? 02:40pm it reminds me about pseudo-random numbers vs real random numbers. You know that pseudo-random isn't real random, but at least you control its behavior same w/ digital vs analog you know that a digitized number ain't as good as a perfect real number, but at least you control the lossage! In quantum computing, there's lots of error.. so the researchers have come up with ways to deal with it. I'm not at all sure about analog computing, but it's an area ripe for exploration. earth is at http://www.futuresouth.com/~stormy/earth.shtml abi, earth? i think earth is at http://www.futuresouth.com/~stormy/earth.shtml Fare: I should email you about the brokerage thing. I wrote a few pages about it. Anyway, I say we flesh it out, and start looking for businessmen to try it :) tcn: if you want to take over the article, go ahead! ωνω KeLp [tcole@sloth.wcug.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES Fare: Have you written much of it? much of what? much of what is, like, done on TUNES is not seen abi: haha! 02:50pm Fare: dont bust a gut there porky haha tcn: I'm mostly open-source. What I write is published! Fare: Uhh, lemme try that again. How far along are you on the brokerage article? ωνω Connection closed from irc.us.openprojects.net: Success ωνω Use /Server to connect to a server ωνω Connecting to port 6667 of server irc.us.openprojects.net [refnum 0] ωνω BitchX: For more information about BitchX type /about ωνω Welcome to the Internet Relay Network TUNES (from norton.openprojects.net) ωνω Your host is norton.openprojects.net[ftp.caus.linpeople.org.], running version u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 (from norton.openprojects.net) ωνω This server was cobbled together Mon Jan 25 1999 at 07 12:10 EST(from norton.openprojects.net) ωνω norton.openprojects.net u2.10.04.resolv9.nmt.egcs4.tok.pten.tlim4.admin.upper4.whisper3.gipl.modeless7 dioswkfcg biklmnopstv ωνω [local users on irc(9)] 4% ωνω [global users on irc(81)] 35% ωνω [invisible users on irc(149)] 65% ωνω [ircops on irc(11)] 5% ωνω [total users on irc(230)] ωνω [unknown connections(0)] ωνω [total servers on irc(29)] (avg. 7 users per server) ωνω [total channels created(61)] (avg. 3 users per channel) !norton.openprojects.net Highest connection count: 18 (16 clients) ωνω Mode change [+f] for user TUNES ωνω Mode change [+iw] for user TUNES ωνω TUNES [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #tunes ωνω Topic for #TUNES: tunes arrows in haskell OS dev FAQ (Contributors needed!) ωνω topic set by Tril [Sun Jan 31 15:27:18 1999] ωνω [Users(#TUNES:8)] [ TUNES ] [ KeLp ] [ iStormy ] [ tcn ] [ Fare ] [ Tril ] [ ^lilo ] [ abi ] ωνω Channel #TUNES was created at Wed Dec 30 09:08:43 1998 ωνω BitchX: Join to #tunes was synced in 6.649 secs!! ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (goota eat supper) Fare: I might be interested in that article, but not if it has to be long, dry, and academic :) It needs discussion and experimentation, not a wannabe authoritative text.. anyway, time for practice. Gotta go. ωνω SignOff tcn: #TUNES (tcn has no reason) 03:00pm ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason) ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes ωνω NetSplit: calvino.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [04:34pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [calvino.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: calvino.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes hi hey, iStormy lo 04:40pm !lilo:*! Services apparently had to be restarted....sorry for the inconvenience, all, and thanks for your understanding 8) π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 3 hrs 41 min 53 secs ωνω SignOff Fare: #TUNES (Leaving) ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #Tunes π Tril/#TUNES is away: (away) [BX-MsgLog Off] !ChanServ:*! lilo used GETPASS on channel #muck π Tril/#TUNES is back from the dead. Gone 0 hrs 25 min 26 secs yo 05:40pm ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (home) ωνω NetSplit: carter.openprojects.net split from koontz.openprojects.net [06:03pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [carter.openprojects.net] !king.openprojects.net!! Remote CONNECT carter.openprojects.net 8004 from lilo ωνω Netjoined: carter.openprojects.net koontz.openprojects.net ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES !carter.openprojects.net!! Received :koontz.openprojects.net SERVER king.openprojects.net from koontz.openprojects.net !?! ωνω NetSplit: koontz.openprojects.net split from king.openprojects.net [06:04pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [koontz.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: koontz.openprojects.net king.openprojects.net ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [06:31pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES ωνω hotrod23 [MyComputer@as25-29.eatel.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω hotrod23 [MyComputer@as25-29.eatel.net] has left #TUNES [] ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iStormy[rain.futuresouth.com]) ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #tunes ωνω NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [06:55pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES ωνω lar1 [larman@208.254.224.137] has joined #tunes Hi! <_QZ> hi Is bespin not going to change to dhs? <_QZ> eh? Is bespin.ml.org not changing to bespin.dhs.org <_QZ> dunno How do I set premissions on a directory so as to let anyone have premissions to it? err, read premissions to it in unix or what chmod a+r dirname Ya Thanks 07:20pm ωνω lar2 [larman@208.254.224.137] has joined #tunes ωνω NetSplit: carter.openprojects.net split from koontz.openprojects.net [07:22pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [carter.openprojects.net] ωνω lar2 is now known as lar1 ωνω Netjoined: carter.openprojects.net koontz.openprojects.net ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES iStormy: ur page is looking better ;) ωνω KeLp [kelp@xws267.xtrn03.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES ωνω NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from sterling.openprojects.net [07:35pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net sterling.openprojects.net ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES Anyone here have their page on bespin.nl.org? not i err ml.org lar1: iv got a little stuff there, bineng has some site prototype stuff <_QZ> iStormy: whats the url for yer page? hcf: How did you set your premissions for those files? abi, earth? earth is at http://www.futuresouth.com/~stormy/earth.shtml i'll have more earth oe info up in a couple days 07:40pm the page looks sucky in netscape 3 dc: lar1: rw-r--r-- in your home dir? lar1: ~/html/ <_QZ> yer graphic is broken Whats the octal bit pattern for that? <_QZ> 644 iStormy: if ur using ssi, why dont u chmod +x *.html instead of using .shtml ? so if I chmod 664 a directory, then I can read the html files in it w/ a browser? <_QZ> lar1: as long as the last set is a 4 then anyone can read it hcf: isp insists...says .shtml is more secure <_QZ> but for directories u need it +x also ok, thaks qz: haven't made the logo yet (c; iStormy: oic not a new one anyway...you can see the old logo at http://www.futuresouth.com/~stormy/old2/ <_QZ> i like the old2 pages better :) π iStormy/#Tunes sighs and supposes he have to manually code colors into the new page..too many folks with 3.0 browsers still. <_QZ> ya i use 3.0 <_QZ> and wont upgrade to 4.x qz: gimme 4 minutes to add the tags to the new page and you'll see what it's supposed to look like. i'm using style sheets in the new one, so you're missing 90% of it <_QZ> u need to use php3 <_QZ> then the server can hand out different pages to different browsers i don't feel like patching php3 and msql and perl into apache...big pain and the isp needs msql and perl in their server, so i can't remove it 07:50pm <_QZ> bah iStormy: as i said, just give ppl a choice of fancy/non-fancy <_QZ> qzx.com will be soooo easy to maintain now that im converting to php3 ωνω NetSplit: koontz.openprojects.net split from king.openprojects.net [07:55pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [koontz.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: koontz.openprojects.net king.openprojects.net ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES <_QZ> right now it detects lynx or emacs and sends them a text only version of every page cookies, yay! <_QZ> all other browsers get a gfx version 08:00pm hcf: If I have files in ~/html is my url http://bespin.ml.org/users/lar1/html/? hcf: just wondering why you hate non-text web pages so much lar1: http://bespin.ml.org/~lar1/ Oooooooooo, _thats_ the problem! iStormy: gfx r useless frills unless they ARE the content s/unless/useless/ oop my new page totals 7k, with html, styles, and images, vs 19k for my old one. hcf: It says forbidden... <_QZ> iStormy: hcf is using a monochrome text only monitor and is pissed cuz he cant see color or gfx <_QZ> :) i can see color hcf: if you want to see lynx displays, you can either run lynx, or use a proxy like junkbuster, and tell it to lie about what you have. debian and freebsd both have junkbuster packages of course, that only works on pages that check to see what you have 99% of pages don't do that Why does chmod 644 html keep me out of my html directory? _QZ: gonna look at the new version? lar1: directories have to be +x to chdir into them Ok iStormy: is giving ppl a choice too hard for u? i'd appreciate it if someone with opera were to make a screenshot fer me <_QZ> lar1: 755 <_QZ> lar1: it has to be +x _qz: 775 is 644 but with a +x? iStormy: u mean http://www.futuresouth.com/~stormy/ ? hcf: it's 7k, has 1 image, displays 100% reasonably in lynx, has no java, blink, animations, etc...i think i've done my part. <_QZ> lar1: yes hcf: yup, or the earth page, either one <_QZ> lar1: all dirs need to be +x _qz: How do you figure out the bit pattern for all of these? iStormy: it looks the same (and yes i reloaded it) <_QZ> 111101101 hcf: still all gray? iStormy: i force my color scheme Then convert to octal? <_QZ> iStormy: much nicer hcf: ah, well, the colors are what make the structure visible, so you won't see any change then lar1: one easier way is to use the letter versions, like this i see whatcha mean lar1: chmod a+r,u+x filename a = all, u = user, o = other g = group iStormy: Ok, cool rwx you already know 08:10pm so for u how do you sepcify what user? π iStormy/#Tunes tried forcing his color scheme once, but in netscape at least, too much stuff ends up invisible. <_QZ> chown username file <_QZ> chgrp groupname file <_QZ> when u do a long dir listing u will see the perms, user, group, date, filename How do I do that? ωνω NetSplit: tolkien.openprojects.net split from carter.openprojects.net [08:16pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [tolkien.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: tolkien.openprojects.net carter.openprojects.net ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES lar1: user = owner of the file ls -l _QZ: other than the missing graphic on the new version, which do you prefer, old or new? the new is better (tho u didnt ask me) <_QZ> new i figured you had to like it...it has like 9 fewer images (c; not that you'd have known that in opera or lynx images r ok but only w/ proper alt tags would you believe that durn page has 14 tables in it? i hate tables... perhaps u could grab a storm img from a weather site 08:20pm How do I rename files? my old logo (http://www.futuresouth.com/~stormy/old2/images/main.jpg) is freebsd based, so i can't reuse it. )c: since my new page is earth based ωνω NetSplit: carter.openprojects.net split from koontz.openprojects.net [08:25pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [carter.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: carter.openprojects.net koontz.openprojects.net ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (Ping timeout for iStormy[rain.futuresouth.com]) 08:30pm ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (brb) ωνω SignOff lar1: #TUNES (Leaving) ωνω KeLp [kelp@xws267.xtrn03.wwu.edu] has joined #TUNES damn, blackbox is cool ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes durn modem check out my opening statement on the earth page tis kinda silly, i'm up too late its fine, but whats it got to do w/ earth oe ? i'm working on that paragraph now 08:40pm creative opening statements r a frill i agree w/ new paragraph up 08:50pm and reworded ωνω iStormy_ [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #Tunes ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (iStormy has no reason) ωνω iStormy_ is now known as iStormy 09:00pm ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (brb) new paragraph up <_QZ> uhh <_QZ> how does that have anything to do with an OS he's getting to it, dont worry <_QZ> :) i'm explaining what i find wrong with current os's dc: to lay the basis for my plans. dc: <_QZ> dont bitch, fix it dont irc, release brix :P <_QZ> hey i got a lot done on brix last week and the week before <_QZ> but now im upgrading my page abi, brix? i heard brix was a free portable protected preemptive pervasive-multithreading multiuser persistant object-oriented high-speed distributed operating system located at http://www.qzx.com/brix just php'ing or actually adding content? <_QZ> php'ing yay! <_QZ> but it will make the page navigation more consistent <_QZ> and i will be moving the pcgpe and asm links (plus some ore) and docs from borg to php <_QZ> so yes it will have more content ωνω NetSplit: carter.openprojects.net split from varley.openprojects.net [09:18pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [carter.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: carter.openprojects.net varley.openprojects.net ωνω _QZ [brand@p0wer.qzx.com] has joined #tunes ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES 09:20pm new paragraph hold on alright, up now and that's it for today <_QZ> s/News/New/ <_QZ> News ways of thinking about software are already fixed, thanks though -doogie(adam@209.176.56.193)- I am going to move a few servers around in a few minutes. Thanks. <_QZ> so how are u doing yer UI? !doogie:*! ok. few minutes are up. !doogie:*! :) ωνω NetSplit: mccaffrey.openprojects.net split from koontz.openprojects.net [09:35pm] ωνω BitchX: Press Ctrl-F to see who left Ctrl-E to change to [mccaffrey.openprojects.net] ωνω Netjoined: mccaffrey.openprojects.net koontz.openprojects.net ωνω abi [nef@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω ^lilo [lilo@varley.openprojects.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω Tril [dem@bespin.ml.org] has joined #TUNES ωνω hcf [nef@escher.sdi.agate.net] has joined #TUNES ωνω iStormy [stormy@rain.futuresouth.com] has joined #TUNES ωνω Fare [rideaufr@esmeralda.enst.fr] has joined #TUNES <_QZ> so how are u doing yer UI? !netgod:*! time flies when youre using linux !doogie:*! yeah, infinite loops in 5 seconds. !Teknix:*! has anyone re-tested that with 2.2.x ? !doogie:*! #define that !netgod:*! yeah, 4 seconds now !doogie:*! still don't know what was tested in the first place for 2.2.x dunno yet...haven't had much ideas !doogie:*! netgod shows me the light. <_QZ> when u decide u wanna make a new Ui u usually have a few ideas of stuff u would like to see in it 09:40pm <_QZ> like flaws in current UI's that u dont want in yer ui <_QZ> or features that u like in current UI's or features that dont exist but u think would be nice guis are slow, cumbersome, and hard to control for many tasks i just gotta fix that (c; ωνω SignOff iStormy: #TUNES (bedtime) !doogie:*! we now return you to your regularly scheduled #channel 09:50pm !koontz.openprojects.net!! 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Remote CONNECT lucas.openprojects.net 8005 from lilo ωνω SignOff KeLp: #TUNES (sleep) ωνω SignOff _QZ: #TUNES (BRiX [http://www.qzx.com/brix] :: sleep) ωνω SignOff hcf: #TUNES (Leaving) [msg(TUNES)] newlog 1999.0202 IRC log ended Tue Feb 2 00:00:00 1999